I'm going to once again recommend books by Kevin Leman for the subject of disciplining. His is a "reality discipline" approach which I don't have down, but seems to work well. Discipline is not punishment--it is love. I don't believe parents who don't discipline their children are fully showing them love. Our job in loving kids is helping them to grow up well--to be able to live on their own, to love God and love others. Discipline is correcting inappropriate actions. God does it to us as well.

We have spanked our kids. Maybe more than we should have at times. And, while we've tried never to do it in anger, we haven't always succeeded in that--though we've gotten better about not "reacting" to situations, but directing them. The main way to not spank in anger--or do anything in anger--is to manage it. I find that when I'm doing something out of anger it because I let the situation get out of hand before I corrected it. The issue then isn't the spanking, but the anger.

We don't attach a biblical mandate to it. We do it because there are times (for us we only spank if the child has put himself or someone else in harm) when other methods don't seem to work. I was spanked when I was young--but not abused--and I always knew my parents love for me. It's fairly rare that we get to the point of spanking, but we have done it. The key is to always make sure discipline of any sort is done in love. And to me, doing nothing is not love.

Good discussion.

I don't think being rich is necessarily a bad thing. Just a dangerous thing from a spiritual viewpoint. If it is a bad thing then it puts us in a place of judgment: rich people are bad, poor people are good. Which I don't think is the case. I've met plenty of Christians with wealth who follow as well as any poor person I know. Jesus concern with the rich was where their heart was. Does He call to give sacrificially? Yes. But just because someone doesn't give sacrificially does that mean than they are any "worse" than the person who gives all but neglects prayer, fasting or memorizing Scripture (all things Jesus tells us to do as well)?

As has been pointed out, virtually everyone of us in the US is within the top 8% of the world's wealthiest. Should we sell off our cars, technology and homes (the Christians in Acts would sell their homes) and give it all away (there are always needy to give to)?

Of course, we all need to be encouraged and challenged in our walk as we "try to follow." Discussion is good.
My recent post Third Sunday in Advent- Joy

Good thoughts. I hope you receive more good discussion. We, too, haven't carried debt outside of student loans back in the day and now we have the mortgage. We, too, try to live simply. A lot of that right now is out of necessity, but we've always tried to live in that mindset. Outside of our recent tax refunds from buying the house and such, we always give more than we save. Part of that's the reality that we will always tithe first, but save when we can.

I'd like to hear more discussion in these areas:

How do savings accounts, IRAs, stocks & bonds, etc. play into the parable of the rich man who expanded his barns and was struck dead for trying to save up on earth?

Is insurance biblical? Should we be spending money to replace what we have? (Acknowledging that some forms of car insurance and property insurance are often mandatory).

When is it okay to spend money on non-necessary things? Should we ever eat out (I can feed my family for 3 to 4 days--9 to 12 meals--for what Beth and I spend eating cheaply at a sit-down restaurant. Is it wrong to spend more money on a an expensive car that will probably hold up a lot better than buying a cheap used car that will need a lot of repairs. Should we ever buy books or just use the library? And how does the story of the woman pouring expensive perfume over Jesus play into this (the poor you will always have with you)

Just random thoughts for the discussion.
My recent post Second Sunday in Advent- Peace

Scot McKnight calls the biblical mandate to love "The Jesus Creed": to love God & love our neighbors as ourselves. "Family first" idolizes family. Yet, for those of us who are married, we likely made a vow that on some level may have elevated our spouse's status. And this is not a bad thing. But it is also the reason Paul urged people to stay single--so that there weren't distractions in ministry.

You're right. we need to love others in the same way we love our families. The big thing is to look at others as our family as well--our brothers & sisters in Christ, our neighbors, etc.

For me, I know there are times that I can't love my neighbor as I need to if I haven't been taking care of (loving) myself. There have been times when I have given endlessly to others without self-care, and it has been detrimental. And sometimes taking care of self involves forsaking other things for the sake of my family.

I'm with you--I try to eat as healthily as possible (most of the time--there are still plenty of times when I succumb to the desire for succulent junk food). Coming from a farm family, I grew up with lots of meat on the table (now we're mainly turkey and chicken as we can often get those the cheapest). I grow what I'm able to. I visit the Farmer's Market. Still, 92% of our food comes from Aldi. Once in a while we stock up on something at Costco. We go to Cub, Rainbow or Target with our monthly WIC check. We're on a budget that doesn't have wiggle room for moving a percentage from one column to our food budget to buy more organic. Even when we have a WIC check we can use at the Farmer's Market, it usually isn't able to be used from booths that are "certified organic." And local, organic, free-range meats are definitely out of the question.

And therein lies the system question. We can work at changing the system one person at a time; we can provide our family healthier options. But healthy, environmentally-friendly food (especially meats, dairy & produce) tend to be a luxury for the upper-middle class and above.

Also, my dad is a farmer. He doesn't necessarily buy into the organic philosophies. He's been rooted in the way he farms his whole life. It would take something big for him to change that. And the majority of small, family farms don't have the resources to change the way the farm (machinery costs tens--if not hundreds--of thousands of dollars), there aren't places for them to sell to in truly rural areas and they're enmeshed with the government (dependent upon their subsidies) to make an income. So I don't want to see my father, my uncles and my friends' parents struggle more than they've had to in life to eke out a living.

I once heard Rob Bell talk about faith. He said most of us tend to make Christianity into a box. You're either in or your're out of it. Often our main concern in evangelism is making sure people have "fire insurance."

Rob said, however, that Jesus' approach was to invite people on a journey. It's not so much where you're at (in or out), but what you're seeking and doing along the way.

He wasn't focusing on the Sheep & Goats passage, but I think it goes along with it. The journey Jesus invites on is to follow Him. And He went about healing the sick, preaching the good new (gospel is a singular word, enhancing the novelty of Christ's message) and casting out demons (seems like we forget that part, too). On our journey following Him we should be paying attention to "the least of these" like He did.

I agree that the "church is full of sinners" can become an excuse, but we also need it for a reminder of the importance of discipleship. Without discipleship, people don't move forward in their faith development. Part of evangelical's problems stem from this American belief that we can do everything on our own, as individuals. We don't look to others to aid us in our walk. We believe the Holy Spirit can empower us to change all on our own (which, the Holy Spirit can, but He doesn't usually work that way). I've been a hypocrite in the church for years. It was because I was trying to live my life on my own without walking with others. We make it shameful to be real, so we are forced to hide our sins and let others believe we are "good people."

I don't think it's necessarily bad to have theological excuses like that either. Because, in addition to the excuse of original sin, we also have the excuse of grace and forgiveness. And love. We in the church are supposed to live with grace, forgiveness and love. Again, we fail miserably at operating with those theological tenets, but if we use them, they are where we show our faith. "They will know we are Christians by our love." Still, it takes mature Christians to get to the place of having real love for others (which admonishes and encourages others to grow in their faith).

So again, I think it all comes back to needing more discipleship in the church. Without walking beside each other, modeling Jesus to others, growing in our faith, we won't have mature believers who can move beyond their duplicitous living into mature love, grace and forgiveness.

Part of the problem is that the church is full of sinners. It should be. If that ever changes, we're failing. We have a bent toward on our selfish, misguided desires which take us away from living as God would have us live.

A potentially bigger problem is that most churches suck at discipleship. We don't help people grow. Unfortunately, most of the time the people don't want to grow. But we don't always spur them on toward growth. So we remain shallow Christians. We accept our salvation but shun the process of sanctification, growing more Christ-like. And so, we say we are Christians, but we don't have the maturity to live changed lives.

That's probably not anywhere near the full answer. But it's a thought.