I hope that people here can see what is going on. Bill is deleting any of my posts to other people until I bow before him.

I have made several attempts to answer his question about how I am justified and afforded grace,even offering a parable of sorts to clarify my position.

Yet he has answered none of my questions.

Is this somebody who feels threatened by open discussion? Seriously, this is a first for me.

This behavior is about as unethical as any I have seen in posting on different blogs.

Are there any other moderators watching this?

Can anybody say abuse of power?

Bill,

Thanks for clarifying your question.

Salvation by grace and the requirement to repent and obey are not mutually exclusive concepts.

I have tried to explain this countless times to critics like yourself, but have yet to have any of them acknowledge understanding of it.

Consider an heir. A wealthy man who has created an empire worth billions chooses one child out of many whom he believes is honest, humble, industrious, and charitable to bestow the inheritance upon.

The heir has no causal relationship to the wealth- he has done nothing to create that wealth. Its existence has nothing to do with him. Yet, motivated by grace, the grandfather gives the empire to the most honorable child.

This is a very feasible, biblical, and logical balance of grace and works. It is undeniable that the heir was blessed by pure grace. The fact that the heir's characteristics and trustworthiness have a relationship to the father's decision does not diminish the fact that ultimately, he acted through grace to bestow such an empire upon one who had not "earned" it.

I am justified by Christ AS I repent, forsake sin and obey. It is a lifelong process. I know that makes EVs uncomfortable.

I have moments of sin and uncleanness. These are interspersed with moments and times of repentance, forsaking, obedience, and forgiveness. And as I strive to become better at the process and closer to Christ, I am blessed with grace from God to do what I cannot do myself- whether it is having hope for myself, faith that Christ's power is greater than my sins, or the determination to obey. Grace is received in the beginning of the process, throughout the process, and the ultimate bestowal of grace at judgement.

You really seem to have a problem with verses that speak of grace and include the word "then." I think those verses likely refer to the great judgement- the ultimate and final bestowal of grace. That is given after the long process I have described above.

This concept fits every Bible verse that speaks of grace, faith, works, endurance, repentance, obedience, perfection, etc.

IMO, that cannot be said of any other paradigm or explanation.

Bill,

I think it curious that you accuse me of hypocrisy on the same thread wherein you also criticize me for demonstrating "disdain for what many... believe and hold sacred." Are you serious? What is the basis of your ministry?

Do you answer questions?

I have attempted to simply answer a few of yours. Yet you make no attempt to return the favor. But that is fine. In doing so (or not doing so), you only discredit yourself.

I AM JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY THE ATONING SACRIFICE OF JESUS CHRIST.

YES, I AM A SINNER.

And Moroni 10 is perfectly consistent with my faith and view of salvation. You are incorporating only a one-time-repentance concept to this passage, adding reason for my claim about your view on grace and repentance.

I insist that you and others do not understand the Church of Jesus Christ because you misstate our doctrine and theology consistently. I am being generous in making that claim.

For example, I heard you say recently that the role of grace for LDS is limited to the universal resurrection and that our salvation from sin is entirely a function of our works, not the grace of God.

This certainly seems contradictory to your representation of our view on the atonement. You say we are wrong for believing the atonement took place in part in the Garden of Gethsemane.

So which is it? If we limit the atoning grace of Christ to His death on the cross and subsequent resurrection, what do we think was going on in the Garden? Why His suffering in the garden if we are not saved by grace? If it is all a function of our works, what was the purpose of His infinite suffering?

But this is the case with almost all your arguments. If a person steps back and looks at what you argue, it just doesn't make sense.

rvales,

You are coming to this question with an assumption. That is that God said somewhere that all people will be given the chance in this life to be taught the gospel of Christ.

Do you believe that a person must accept Christ on Christ's terms? If so, then it is simply a matter of defining those terms.

I see no way that what I have explained on this thread diverts or affects any authority from God. Can you show me otherwise?

You may disagree with the terms that I believe have been set by God. That is fine. You simply believe in different terms than me. But we both believe that God is the source of those terms of salvation. Make sense?

In other words, I believe God requires faith, repentance, baptism by a commissioned servant of Christ, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end of life in faith in order to be saved. I am either correct or not. I believe these are the terms God has set. Just because man may be involved in some of these things does not necessarily mean they originate from man. Right? That is like arguing that the Bible originated from man and is therefore "man-made" and not of God.

wyoming,

Please show me where "Mormon prophets/apostles have taught that God and His wife sexually produced" me.

Truth is we have no idea how spirits are organized and what role God has in all that. Where did you get your information? Bill McKeever?

I could not care less if I am ever worshipped and haven't the slightest idea if that is in my future.

The goal I am referring to is becoming the absolutely best being possible- the most honest, sincerest, humblest, most patient, and most capable of helping others. I find it ironic that EVs criticize LDS for supposedly always wanting only to be rewarded for behavior, yet cannot seem to understand the value in such a pursuit.

After being forgiven for sin and contemplating the great sacrifice of Christ, it feels amazing for a person to feel and be the recipient of God's love. Do you think it is wrong to want to possess some degree of that type of love and extend it to others somehow?

(Or are we going back to the socialist religion and the concept of finite resources- in this case, a finite supply of divine love?)

f_melo,

Not everything that has the word "law" in it must be thrown in the garbage. It is as if EVs have an aversion to that word.

By "law, ordinances, principles" etc.- I refer to all those concepts, actions, and eternal principles upon which salvation depends. You know, like- faith in Jesus Christ, His atonement, forgiveness of sin, the Holy Ghost, resurrection, etc. etc, etc. The majority of the worlds people through history have known nothing other these things.

Do you believe people will live with God, yet know nothing of Christ's atonement?

I am making no attack on the atonement of Jesus Christ. Please try to follow.

You said "it isn't our level of knowledge that saves us." I contend, rather, that it is our response to what we know that determines where we will be in the spirit world. Ultimately, our knowledge will affect our destiny and salvation, and we will receive knowledge only as we respond correctly to what we already understand. So it is a combination of what we know and how we act upon that knowledge.

As far as your point about Peter's ministry- yes, faith, repentance, baptism- first principles of the gospel. They are the bedrock of our faith and we practice and work on those things throughout our lives. I am not completely sure of your point. The longest journey starts with a single step. Where did Peter say there was nothing more to learn? Peter taught the people to repent, then be baptized. And who is going to repent without faith in Jesus Christ? There is nothing contradictory there for us at all.

Salvation has several meanings. Yes, as you note- one of those meanings is to be saved from death through the resurrection. But in our terminology, it can also mean simply entering the Celestial Kingdom. It can also be synonymous with exaltation. Depends on the context.

Hell, too, has many definitions, which I explained on another recent thread.

f_melo,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Your comments and the verses you cite offer perspective on repentance, but don't necessarily define it or its role in our salvation.

I think our differences may stem from the fundamental beliefs we have about the purpose of this life and the nature of God (not exactly small details).

In my view, God's highest concern and investment is in what we become. He certainly desires for us to praise Him and give Him credit for that which He absolutely deserves. BUT, I believe he desires those things because it is in our interest as individuals to return to Him that which is rightfully His. I very much doubt He depends upon or needs my praise or attention. He simply loves me and knows that I desperately need to feel and express those things to grow and develop.

To me, the gospel is more than about accounting. By that I mean that God has a greater and broader interest than paying debts and assigning blame. Those things are absolutely necessary. But there is a purpose far more grand than God being praised by His creations. He is bigger than that.

As I told Bill above, one can be clean from sin but not perfect. I believe the goal is to be not only cleansed from all sin, but to become perfect in attributes. In short, to become like the Savior. What good does it do to be freed from sin if you are still a jerk to others. What good does it do to have transgressions washed away if you are left with somebody who only wants to idle away his time playing video games. And I suppose you could say that those things are "sins" in themselves. And that may be true, but I hope you get my point. And that is that God greatly desires for us to become something great and wonderful.

You mention motivation and repenting out of love for God. I could not agree with you more. Simple love for God should be our greatest motivation. If Christ suffered for my sins, and if my repentance and obedience diminishes to some degree the “amount” of sin I commit, then if I love Christ I will desire to repent of my sins and try my best not to sin because it has direct relationship to His suffering. The less I sin, the less He had to suffer.

You said “we are not going to stop sinning.” While I agree that I will never be a “non-sinner” in this life, I believe it is a matter of degrees (yes I know the verse about one infraction breaking the whole law- and I think the application or point of that verse is different). Again, what we become is the goal. If we can overcome the propensity to be a drunk, or be an adulterer, or short-tempered, or lazy- whatever it is.

Consider an 8 year old child. He can be pure and free from sin through Christ. Consider what that child contributes to the world- he is largely dependent on others for his care and keep. Now consider a 50 year old heart surgeon. He or she too can be cleansed from sin through Christ. But consider what that surgeon can contribute to others. The difference is the surgeon has BECOME something through experience, discipline, work, and practice and God’s grace.

And that is God’s desire for us- to become great in our ability to contribute to other people, in this life and the next. And without obedience and repentance, that can never happen.

I personally love the passage from Luke 7- likely because I have sinned so much in my life and I know which of the two I am. But the passage is perfectly consistent with everything I believe about repentance and the gospel.

Again, I think you misunderstand.

In the spirit world, it is not simply mormons who are in the paradise portion (I am sure there will be plenty of mormons not on the "paradise" side). I truly do not think it matters what religion anybody has been at that point. More importantly, the degree to which a person has followed their conscience in living correct principles is the degree to which they will enjoy peace and light in the spirit world. The more they know and understand, the more they will be accountable. And this fits very well what the NT verses say.

BUT, truth is truth, a person cannot be saved in ignorance. In other words, a person can be a fabulously kind, generous, honest person, etc., but he or she must understand the principles of the gospel and salvation and choose to follow them before living with Heavenly Father. So it is in the spirit world that people will have the chance to get "up to speed" or to learn these laws, etc. Nobody can enter that Kingdom without accepting Christ, which is hard to do if a person knows nothing about Him.

Some people have claimed we are universalists, which is very untrue- God doesn't save everybody. And people's beliefs and religion do matter. God's laws are unalterable- He is a God of order and does not break His own laws. But He is also a very fair and just God and ensures all people have equal opportunity to act from an informed position before being judged.

It is the perfect blend of law and mercy.

f_melo,

I can see why you left if that was your understanding of the gospel.

Every person will receive a chance to understand and accept the principles and ordinances of the gospel. Those not afforded that opportunity in this life will have it in the spirit world. (EV love to call this a "second" chance- math not being their strong suit- it's actually a first opportunity).

When a person accepts Jesus Christ and has a change of heart and repents, he or she is forgiven of sin. A person can certainly experience this as they approach death. If he or she is sincere in their repentance at that point, I don't think anybody can say he won't be saved. But if a person has had ample opportunities to understand the gospel and has rebelled up to the last minute- I think that may be a different story- just my opinion.

Any EVs here desire to explain the role of repentance according to your religion? If you do believe in it, please explain it. The whole death bed scenario doesn't apply to most people, although it may be interesting to talk about or illustrate aspects of salvation.