Thanks Marty

Thanks Matt. If the titles of our respective blogs are any judge we seem to have some similar perspective ;)

I really do think I get your heart on this Sonja and am inclined to say I'm totally with you, but want to make make one comment for the sake of clarification.
Jesus was critical, even condemnatory, of the Pharisees as well as those who sought to hijack the character of his Messiahship. Paul corrected believers who acted in immaturity and selfishness. He flat our denounced Judaizers and those who proclaimed "a different gospel." So, when our words and actions are rightly motivated there is certainly a place for taking stands - even against those who profess to worship the same God. But yes, when these stands turn to pettiness and the protecting of turf (I am not necessarily saying I think this is true of what Ed was saying), you're absolutely right, we've lost sight of what God has called us to - and we need someone to take a stand and correct us.

Thanks Brian. I'm in agreement with what Jason commented above. I think the source of your/our being perplexed stems from the fact that there are some core differences in missonal theology and traditional evangelical theology. Unless these differences are wrestled with, the sort of dichotomies present in Ed's argument are bound to persist.

Thanks for your comment Sonja.

I think I get what you are coming from, but between Jesus spending his entire adult life teaching and shepherding disciples and the fact that those disciples subsequently gave their lives up for the sake of shaping a people who would faithfully embody God's Kingdom, I think we have plenty of justification for evaluating the extent to which we are continuing in this tradition both faithfully and fruitfully. So yes, it does matter, really.

Yes, we are easily distracted into projects and discussions that are not central to what God has called us to. Yes, church is not a business - amen and AMEN!

You are absolutely right - converts are NOT a measure of how right or wrong ones theology is. In fact, I was just commenting to a family member today that "I think Kingdom fruit is always a better way to judge the faithfulness and orthodoxy of people and communities." And I couldn't be more on board with the centrality a of love as a demarcation of the right kind of Kingdom fruit.

Thanks again.

Thanks Jonathan. Read your comment on Ed's post and thought it was really helpful. As Jason said above, there is some real "missing each other" going on and the paths to correct that are really tough in person let alone by way of electronic communication.

"converts are cheap if we lower the bar." Well said.

"If we are being a faithful community which bears witness to Christ with our lives and in our conversations, can we be discharged from the duty of keeping quotas?"

Excellent question. Sadly, in a world where churches seem to be every bit as market-driven as the rest of the world, increasing numbers, rather than increasing stories of wonder, will remain the predominant evaluative criteria.

Precisely why we need to make room in our lives for blogging as a spiritual discipline (http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2005/11/blogging-as... ;)

Totally in agreement that there are questions of gospel and salvation that lie at the heart of this issue. All the more reason to be serious about the conversations we are having. Now somebody go let Ed in on this so I can get the last 2 hours of my life back ;)

Maybe. But it was a "Missional Monday" post and "missional conversation" receives the bulk of his attention in the post.

Even still, between the reasons I mentioned above and the impact and influence that the EC conversation/movement has had in contexts which are further along in terms of the demise of Christendom, I'd say Ed's critique is off base.

Like salting sidewalks before the snow has come or building an ark in anticipation of a flood, there are those who see what's coming before its time is fully here. They look like fools and their labors seem to bear little or no fruit, but in time that just might be reversed.

This is no excuse for lots of talk and no action, but like I said above, I think the numbers of people for whom that's true are so minute that to focus on them is a complete waste of time.