Typically, the Forward deleted my original reply. They'd rather have you disseminating misinformation than allow me to hurt your feelings. They probably won't allow this one through moderation, either.

Bottom line - as per usual, you don't know what you're talking about. Unfortunately, most of the people who frequent these boards don't know enough to realize it.

Oh yes, of course - the threat of gehinnom. That's all you people have.

Stan is absolutely correct.

Once again, you fail to get it and don't address my points.

I'm done here.

As a former secular Jew, I still have access to insider information.

Oh no! Quick, hide the minutes from the last meeting!

Your delusion would be comical if it weren't so tragic. Congratulations; this is a psychosis of epic proportions.

The honest truth is religious Jews make them feel guilty

You wouldn't recognize "the honest truth" if it walked up to you and introduced itself.

You're a very sick individual. Get help - preferably on an inpatient basis.

I wasn't going to reply, because this is pointless and futile, but there's one thing you've said at least a couple of times that I find terribly annoying: "...you have the right to say "yes" or "no". No one is being brainwashed, contrary to what you think." Yes, Charnie, they ARE being brainwashed. This is in no way analogous to being invited to your home for Shabbat (are you also one of those who thinks a corporation is a person?). These organizations target young people at college, or in Israel during what is for many MO kids an almost obligatory year there after high school. They're young and vulnerable, having been sheltered and generally never before having been away from their parents for any length of time. They lack discernment and are often desperate to belong. They're easy prey for fanatics who are eager to bolster their own "faith" by converting others. There's also often a financial incentive in the form of investment on the part of affiliated organizations who care only about Jewish continuity, regardless of the cost.

I would not be easy prey for a kiruvnik. I'm 55, have been around the block with religion and have no trouble telling a professional recruiter to p*ss off. I'm not interested in anything he has to offer, and he can't frighten me with dire threats concerning my postmortem state. An eighteen year-old kid is another story entirely. In previous generations, an eighteen year-old was already an adult. Today, s/he is barely an adolescent.

They're preying on children, Charnie - but of course, you'll refuse to see it, because it doesn't jibe with what you want to believe. Frum people, like evangelicals, are masters of selective perception.

Aish, Ohr Somayach, Chabad, individual yeshivot whose names I don't know because they don't get as much publicity... .

I stopped reading your responses on the other thread because there's no point in talking to you. You're in complete denial - which I knew before I started. I just wanted to give you a hard time in public, so that perhaps a few people would see there's no substance to your arguments.

I'll say it again - if you were as secure in your beliefs as you claim to be, if everything were as rosy as you portray it, you wouldn't feel the constant need to be on the defensive.

Yes, of course. Whatever.

It's the entire subculture that is collapsing.

Why do you persist in making it appear that there's a child molester (G-d forbid) on every corner?

I didn't say anything about child molestation, and I'm not persisting. In fact, I think this is the first time, in all the years I've been coming here, that I've ever addressed you.

You're the one who persists, Charnie. As i said, I've seen you here, on and off, for years, serving as an apologist for the frum world. I have to think, if you were all that secure in your belief that everything is OK, you wouldn't feel the need to broadcast it.

And although I didn't bring it up - child molestation is a serious problem in the frum world and has been for a long time.. A new (or old) incident is revealed on an almost daily basis. You don't want to see it.

That doesn't mean I'm better then you or anyone else, and I apologize for any people you've encountered who've made you feel that way.

I didn't say I felt any way in particular. You're inferring. What you didn't do was address my other points.

However, I have life experience. I live in a large Orthodox community, and to be honest, I don't know of one woman who's left disgruntled.

If we’re leaving it at the level of anecdotal evidence, I know someone who lives in Williamsburg and is on intimate terms with many Satmar. He’s told me many are miserable, deplore the repressive tactics of their leadership and would like to leave, but lack the means (education and knowledge of the outside world) to do so.

If our yeshivas and day schools had as big a dropout rate from religous practice as the Catholics do, we'd probably have disappeared by now.

Again, that doesn't address my point, but in any case - the frum world is undergoing cataclysmic change. Orthodoxy and the liberal denominations have each been declaring the other's immanent demise for two hundred years, and we're all still here - but Orthodoxy is at a watershed now. Frum communities are collapsing - succumbing to pressure from without and deteriorating from within. They're swiftly losing the ability to provide for their growing numbers. The Haredim don't educate their young people sufficiently to provide them with the means to make a living in the outside world. The Modern Orthodox do, of course - but they're in the minority now, by far. The Haredim have spent the past half-century commandeering the franchise, but they can no longer sustain their way of life and when they go, they'll be taking pretty much all of Orthodoxy with them. Meanwhile, the extremists continue to garner as much power and make as much noise as they can, intimidating the rest of you into silence and tacit complicity.

Of course, you’ll deny this. It will be “Not in my community”, or, as you said in the other thread, “Don't blame 99% of the people for the faults of a small, sick, dangerous handful.”

You see what you want to see.