Gurer vf n fubg, V oryvrir va gur arkg rcvfbqr, jurer Nxvb ybbxf bhg uvf jvaqbj ng gur fnzr rknpg gbjre ur vf va...be, creuncf, n frpbaq gbjre. Vg'f irel pbashfvat. Culfvpf? Hgran? Jung'f gung?

.....heh.

"Juri still feels like she can’t let go of her feelings for Shiori, so what exactly did Ruka supposedly fix that was worth abusing Shiori and Juri for?"

I'm not going to say that it was worth abusing them, but while Juri can't let go of her feelings, she's able to joke about them and even consider dating other girls (she's also way more open about her same-sex attractions). This suggests that, while she still has feelings for Shiori, the way she RELATES to those feelings is much more healthy than it used to be.

Vagrerfgvat! V'ir nyjnlf vagrecergrq gur onpx-fgnoovat nf Nagul'f pubvpr, cheryl ure bja, nf ure svany orgenlny bs Hgran. V svtherq vg unq gb qb jvgu Nagul ernyvmvat, qhevat gur qhry jvgu Nxvb, gung Hgran npghnyyl unf jung vg gnxrf gb jva/serr ure naq fur orpbzrf fpnerq, nyzbfg cersreevat gb fgnl va ure "pbssva"/plpyr bs nohfr orpnhfr vg'f snzvyvne.

V'ir arire bapr gubhtug gung fur zvtug'ir gevrq gb pbzzvg fhvpvqr gb trg bhg bs univat gb fgno Hgran ng Nxvb'f erdhrfg. Gung'f fhpu n qvssrerag naq nznmvat jnl bs ybbxvat ng vg! Irel fghaavat. V'yy pbagvahr gb vagrecerg gur fubj zl bja jnl, bs pbhefr, ohg V ernyyl ybir orvat bcrarq gb nygreangvir vagrecergngvbaf yvxr gurfr gung V unira'g urneq orsber. Tbbq ba lbh!

V qb abg oryvrir Nagul'f fhvpvqr nggrzcg bar ovg, zbfgyl orpnhfr Nagul yvgrenyyl fgnof Hgran va gur onpx va gur arkg rcvfbqr. V srry gung gur gjb bs gurz, gbtrgure ba gur onypbal nsgre Hgran "fnirf" Nagul, vf Nagul'f svany znavchyngvba bs Hgran...naq gur onpx-fgnoovat vf ure svany orgenlny. V qba'g guvax Nagul gehyl ortvaf gb ybir Hgran hagvy gur ynfg zbzragf bs gur svany rcvfbqr.

"There are so many shades of Anthy's "dead-eyed stare" we have seen throughout the series. This one seemed somehow hostile to me, and it just doubled the creepiness of the reveal. There she stood like a goddess, saying with her eyes: you thought you were special, you thought he picked you, but he has always been mine, you troublesome insect."

Yes! That's how I've always interpreted her stare in this episode, too. I definitely agree with you, she's being hostile to Utena and showing her that Akio is not "hers".

Of course, though, that's just my interpretation.

Tatsuya has never said anything about sex. Ever. He's talked about being in relationships with girls and kissing them, but he's never brought up the subject of sex. You can argue that that's kind of standard/to be expected of him (which I'd agree with), but it's something inferred, something we never actually see in his words, actions, etc.

You're right, his situation is not comparable to Shiori's or Anthy's, which is *why I said as much* when I wrote, "Sure, I think the situation between Juri and Shiori, for example, is far worse than anything Tatsuya is dealing with" above. But they *are* comparable in the sense that Tatsuya's despair caused him to flee to the Mikage Seminar for help, just as with Shiori.

Of course, he was rejected by Mikage as a Black Rose candidate, so no, his problem of Wakaba not returning his affections (in that episode, that seemed to be his main issue) was not on the same level as Shiori's or any of the other BR duelists.

Basically, I never said their circumstances are the same, but they are two different characters dealing with two different circumstances and I feel it's unfair to write off Tatsuya's issues as him being a "shitbag" while *simultaneously* lashing out at people in the fandom for maybe calling Shiori a shitbag because she's just a teenager and her problems are worse than Tatsuya's (even though she and Tatsuya seem to be the same age, or at least very close in age, and some people in the fandom [not myself, I think Shiori is amazingly complex] view Shiori's self-esteem problems as more pathetic than anything horrible/difficult/et cetera). If you can call Tatsuya a shitbag (and your reasons are not necessarily bad reasons, btw), then what is wrong with people saying the same for Shiori, Kozue, Nanami, and other characters who probably deserve that name even more based on their actions?

I mean, Nanami *killed a kitten* when she was only a child! Tatsuya's views on women and his understanding of relationships are both very immature and hypocritical, but killing a baby animal as a way to get closer to one's sibling is worse. Always. If Tatsuya's a shitbag, Nanami is Queen Shitbag *regardless of her age or circumstances*.

That's not something I necessarily feel, by the way. I'm just laying down a particular argument because I still don't really get it.

Tatsuya never called anyone a "dirty s***" for the record.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: in an absence of the other characters we've met on this show, I would agree and say that Tatsuya is pretty shitty because of all the reasons we don't need to repeat again. But he's not depicted in an absence; in fact, he's been favorably compared against other characters in the canon of the show itself, and to be honest, when faced with characters who are even more shitty (Touga, Saionji are prime examples), it makes me tolerate his awfulness a bit more. So "Just because he isn't King Shitbag of Shitbag Hill doesn't mean he isn't still a shitbag" isn't something I'd necessarily agree with, because let's face it, EVERYONE has some shitbag characteristics. That doesn't make everyone in the world a shitbag. (It also doesn't make everyone excusable, but that's why we have this spectrum of shitbaggery to judge who's a good person and who's not a good person based on the severity of their shitbaggery, in whatever way that manifests.)

I've typed shitbag so many times, it's starting to sound like a fake word. I apologize if this comes off as heated or argumentative. At the end of the day, though I really don't share your perspective, I really appreciate how a show like "Utena" can create so many different inferences and interpretations of its characters. I try to find the good in everyone (I've been told it's something that makes me incredibly naive) and that extends to fictional characters, even villains at times. Please excuse my naivete. (I mean that sincerely!)

"If anyone for some reason didn't get that Tatsuya was a shitbag, please rewatch the beginning of this episode, where he rants to Wakaba about how lying to his latest girl didn't magically result in her wanting to fuck him. ..... please hate (Kanae's mother) instead of teenage girls who are trying to make the best of a bad situation."

But wait, it's not okay to hate/dislike some of the women in Utena because they're just teenagers trying to make the best of a bad situation (usually those bad situations are really just the circumstances of their own lives), but it's okay to hate Tatsuya for his Nice Guy awfulness even though he's also a teenager trying to make the best of his own situation? Sure, I think the situation between Juri and Shiori, for example, is far worse than anything Tatsuya is dealing with...but he's still dealing with the troubles in his life, just like any other character.

I'd say that his attitude towards women, at his age, makes him ignorant and immature and probably just as taken with the "prince" mythos that a lot of the students at Ohtori seem to be taken with. But he doesn't force himself on people (Ruka), nor does he manipulate via sex (Akio, Touga), nor does he slap people (Saionji). Tatsuya has his flaws and he has a lot to learn about life and relationships, but I personally wouldn't call him a shitbag, just like Nanami has her flaws but she is equally undeserving of all the hatred she sometimes gets in the fandom (same with Shiori and Kozue).

Not trying to pick a fight, really. I just see a logical disconnect and maybe if you'd explain more, I'd understand better?

For the record, I don't hate any of the women in the show, except maybe Utena herself, for a variety of reasons. And even though I think Anthy is the most manipulative and complicit fictional character I've ever encountered, I love her because she's fascinating.

As for Kanae's mother...I don't really have an opinion on her, since she's only in the episode for a few minutes. It mostly just stuns me just how far Akio is willing to go to manipulate almost everyone around him.

The first time I watched this episode, I totally missed the fact that Anthy was TOTALLY WATCHING UTENA AND AKIO FROM THE BACK WHEN THEY WERE IN THE CAR.

AND THEN SHE DISAPPEARS.

YUUUPPPPPPPPPPPPPP HI, ANTHY.

EDIT: Can I make a disclaimer? I *love* Anthy. Yes, I think she is manipulative and yes, I think she is making some awful choices -- and yes, she is also a victim in many ways, I am not ignoring that -- but I am in love with her character. Not in a creepy otaku "I want a waifu" way, but in an appreciative, literary way. Now that we're starting to see glimpses of Anthy "behind her glasses" (that's the phrase I use for the "real Anthy"), I think she's getting some amazing characterization via subtext and context clues. In fact, even though the show is called Revolutionary Girl Utena, I believe that Anthy is actually the main character. I don't hate her!

I just think she's incredibly creepy and manipulative, not to the same degree as Akio (he's sooooo horrible) but still.

Yet I love them both so much. It's weird.

It's a bit more complicated than that. Federal laws and local laws, that kind of thing. Most areas in Japan set the age of consent to around 16, as far as I know.