Amazing post bro! Thanks for the insight! FYI: saw this on churchleaders.com and i clicked your link in your profile and the link doesn't work:)

Thanks again!

“Thanks Charlie St. Cloud.”

Yes. Jesus model was both. What's the argument? Jesus DREW a crowd, then worked them down to the 12, the 3 and the 1 on 1.

And out of the 1 on 1, the 3, and the 12, came a crowd.

Love you to bro...and I mean that:) You've come a long way and I appreciate you knowing our hearts...you know we didn't do this in Loudonville...but were called to do this here. Not to be cool or hip or make anyone an alcoholic...my Dad was plenty for me in that arena. Appreciate the love and support.

Hookers: Having sex outside of marriage is wrong.
Drugs: Not allowable for "The Temple" of God.
Pimps: Prostitution is wrong.
Steal: Stealing is forbidden.
Murder: Same.
Cheat: Scripture forbids this too.
Beat Your Wives: Diddo.
A Drink: Found plenty of times in Scripture and not "forbidden". Paul told Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach...Jesus turned H2O into wine...the command is to "not be drunk."

Not a great argument bro...Can't wait to see the fruit of this. We will let you all know what happened at our gatherings and whether it was fruitful or not. If not, we will stop doing it.

And we don't just think, we KNOW you are. [No wink]
HA!!!!

I am too, that's why we struggled with this. I abhorror the slip and slide of our culture. See my response below :)

Wow...great conversation! I am the lead pastor at the plant and the bald dude on the video and would love to respond if I might:)

1. I rarely drink. In my first church plant [www.newhopewired.tv] I don't recall 1 drink while in my home city in 8 years due to high rate of alcoholism. As a matter of fact, I have generally shied away from it as my Father was an alcoholic and I have issues with alcohol due to this. I did go into bars to minister, but drank Pepsi [in a can, so others knew what it was].

2. We struggled big time with this. I am a pretty conservative guy, but methodologically progressive. [Obviously]. I sat on this for quite a while and bathed it in prayer. This was not a copy cat idea or quick decision.

3. We did this for 2 reasons: 1) We are planting by a city of 21K without 1 non-LDS church of any kind in it. NOT ONE! The city is up to 80% LDS, so we cant do what we did the first time and launch "large." I am actually quite averse to that model anymore. So we decided to go where the people were: Coffee shops and "bars." BY the way, there is not 1 bar [official] in our city, so MacCools Pub and Grill will have to do:) 2) We want to be the hands and feet of Jesus. We are also offering Alpha as an alternative. I would rather be in a city of 80% atheist, then 80% fill in the blank. It's tough soil, so we have to go to them and alcoholism does not seem to be an issue in our area. [I am sure there are plenty, but it's not perverse like where I was in small town Ohio].

4. I hate alcoholism, but there are also many "worldly" vises we can engage in. The question is not engagement in most of them, but EXCESS. Jesus did turn water into wine at a flippin' party, but some of us [myself included] still struggle with this "in the world, but not of the world" idea, and trust me, struggle and battle we have. This was no fly by night decision to be cool, relevant, missional or the like. It came from our desire to be Jesus and meet people where they are.

5. I am so appreciative for this dialogue and warn others to not "copy" this model or others who do this. Please seek the Lord as to whether this is something you are called to do. Context is the key when being "all things to all people." And no, to beat you to the punch, I don't believe "sin" can be contextualized:) We don't feel this is sin, but I would agree it COULD be a stumbling block, but so could many other things we do in the church. People take casual dress beyond the limits, rock music to the limits, movies we watch to the limits, etc. That's why this issue of "freedom in Christ" is so touchy and tough. Stumbling block to those who are already drinking beer does not make sense...bringing them to Christ and bringing the potential beer count from 10 to 2 is actually not a stumbling block, but a deliverance in our opinion.

6. Thanks for stretching us. Thanks for the comments and thanks Tim for the post. Please pray for us. The ONLY REASON WE ARE DOING THIS is to SAVE PEOPLE FROM HELL. PERIOD! We are not trying to be cool, edgy or relevant, but simply the hands and feet of Jesus. Please pray for us to reach a very dark place and this will be one place we can do this, and one outreach we can engage in amongst many others.

While at our first church, telling our "first" campus that we would go to hybrid live and video teaching so we could plant campuses...God blessed big time.

Leaving a multi-campus church we planted to go to LDS country to do it all over again.

Starting a beer and bible study in a city without 1 official bar...it's so taboo here.

Going out with you to a late night movie in San Diego and you falling asleep on my shoulder.