One last thing.

The Educated Fangirl's Guide To The Spike Wars . (Spoilers, obviously.)

No wait, make that two:
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/about.html

Hope you like the rest of the show, and all the best in the future. Might check back in come the finale.

Hey, can you be careful with comparisons to sanity/mental illness?
I meant no disrespect.

Introducing people to msscribe is a pasttime of mine. And Snape Wives!
Can I use the words 'deeply peculiar' re. these?

I agree with Mark that that makes sense. I was trying to tease things out a bit, explanations are difficult to get right without looking like an attempt at justification.
No, that's fine. I was wondering how to phrase it all, as I knew what I wanted to say, but it's difficult to know how it comes across, and at what point you're over- or under-explaining.

So you have two groups of people arguing slightly at cross-purposes and the potential for escalation.
Does that make sense?
That seems a pretty accurate summary, as far as I know.

Frrvat Erq vf tbvat gb or gur ovt grfg, V srne.
Like I just said to Mark: All-penguin AU on standby. Fubhyq jr jnea uvz gb whfg abg nyybj pbzzragf?

Well I think things cannot get worse with Buffy


Um, sorry. I very much appreciate that you're trying to calm everything down. Let's hope it works. (If not, then we have an all-penguin AU to flee to! No really, we do.) This just happens to be my favourite gif.

but I just meant like... general fandom wars that happened in other fandoms?
I know what you meant, I was just overcome by nostalgia. Those were the days... *deep sigh* However, yes, it would be helpful.

Oh yeah. Those were the days...

I think the Harry Potter fandom has a greater claim to lunacy (what with Miss Scribe and all). But it's touch and go, and JK was never as involved as the Buffy writers... /understatement

Buffy is one of the Grand Old Fandoms, and it's apparently still going strong.

this makes more sense! ahaha, now I get why you posted it.
Oh good. These things are tricky.

oh god, i need people to just like... compile a list of all fandom wars I might re-open. someone go through my suggestions list and MAKE A COMPLETE REPORT OR SOMETHING.
I'm sure Stoney once wrote a comprehensive list of all the Buffy fandom kerfuffles...

wait are there fandom wars for like MY LITTLE PONY
I have consulted with my daughters, and yes there is. Either over which is the best pony, or - and I think this is the bigger issue - fights between fans and trolls. Mind you, there might be uglier things going on in corners of the fandom that they don't know about.

what happened recently has nothing to do with people merely liking Spike. It's not analogous at all, so the comment feels weird.
I just wanted to explain why people reacted the way they did - they felt attacked and this is why. When you've spent years defending a character (being maligned and despised because of it), something like this brings back very bad memories. ("It's all happening again...") Doesn't matter that the circumstances are different, the reaction is ingrained. They felt they were being shut down. Again.

That being said, that sounds HORRIFIC.
Oh yes. I am eternally grateful that I missed most of it, and managed to find a nice little corner. it was an ugly, ugly, ugly time. And the thing about the actual writers joining in is absolutely true.

It is background, but I suspect somewhat one-sided background (I wasn't there) apparently about a very specific dynamic of bad behaviour between Buffy/Angel shippers and Spike/Buffy shippers.
As far as I know it was across the board. (I only caught the tail end.) I brought up because I thought it would be helpful to know where the Spike fans came from, and why they react badly to what happened.

People were concerned about victim blaming and apologia for harassment, they weren't trying to fight some kind of shipper war.
I didn't say they were. And I still don't understand how victim blaming etc entered into it (I've not read all the threads, and I don't intend to - life's far too short).

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure why you brought all this up: either it mitigates what went on (which it doesn't, as you said) or its not really that relevant. I get that you're doing it out of sympathy for people hurt back then, but I don't really see how it helps the situation.
I thought Mark might appreciate knowing the history? This current meltdown didn't come out of nowhere, and I figured that since Mark is very concerned about creating a safe haven, he might like to know that fandom was not safe for Spike-fen back in the day in any way shape or form. Their reaction now to this is to curl up into hedgehog like defensiveness - and this is why.

I am calling this the Great Spuffy Meltdown because I have no problem saying this: I had a goddamn meltdown. Man, I thought the Great Ginny Slut Shame War of 2010 was bad, and the Tolkien Race War of 2012 wasn’t pleasant, and the Aang and Zuko Shipping Conflict was really awkward, but this takes the cake.
OK, now take these 48 hours, and stretch them over roughly 2-3 years, and you'll understand what the Buffy fandom was like back in the day. People bringing up 2001? They're having ugly, ugly flashbacks. Spike (and Spuffy) fans in particular, because they were routinely banned, shut down and vilified quite simply for liking a fictional character. I'll quote a little (avoiding spoilers) from the ever-applicable You Might Have Post-Traumatic Joss Syndrome... post:

* If you can remember the mass Spike-fan bannings on forums such as TWOP (going back to when it was MBTV) and/or when it became forbidden to even mention Spike on several forums and Spike-fans being ghettoized on FanForum to a single spoiler thread, you may have been vulnerable to contracting PTJS or a similar disease of 'Spuffy Persecution Complex.'

* If you were personally insulted (as in an intentional insult posted in direct response to you) by one of the show's writers because you thought there could possibly be a path to redemption for a fictional character, you have a high statistical probability of having developed symptoms of PTJS

* If, following the spoilers for "Crush" you remember the creation of sites such as BAPS as refuge from the toxic levels of character hatred within the general fandom, you may have had early exposure to external factors that created a suseptibility to PTJS.

* If you have been A) cyber-stalked by a Buffy-fan B) called an 'evil bitch' C) accused of being in 'the wet panty brigade' D) told that you 'must be destroyed' F) told that you should be ashamed of yourself and never allowed to be near children G) Told to go back to 'writing love-letters to serial killers in prison' H) accused of participating in an 'evil cabal' because of being a Spike-fan and I) needed to change your screen name and edit your spam filter so as to decrease fandom stress, you may have experienced the sort of OTT fannish hell that in a handfull of cases has led to PTJS.

* If you were repeatedly told that every positive action a character took was entirely predicated on his "trying to get into Buffy's pants" ... even when Buffy's pants were dead and in rapid decay in a coffin underground, you may have experienced the kind of cognitive dissonance that upon prolonged exposure could lead PTJS.

~~~

Post written slightly tongue-in-cheek, obviously, yet you can see the effects of 'PTJS' still...

Now I'm not bringing this up to excuse the people who harrassed you. There is no excuse for that. But I hope it explains the hornet's nest you stumbled into, and the level of vitriol that was in many cases unleashed. This goes back years. And people were hurt. Often people who were already marginalised in some way or another, which is why they loved Spike (the perpetual outsider) in the first place.

Anyway, it's late and I'm tired and I sincerely hope no one's going to jump down my throat for writing this. I just wanted to explain the background - most fans thought these wounds long healed. Guess they weren't.

Also - baby Connor, the cutest baby ever! Hurrah!

He is deeply confused by her.

He understood it, when she said that nothing could ever happen. (Crush) He understood it when she called on him to be her soldier and right-hand man. (The Gift)

Then she - even when he tries to send her away - kisses him, expressing a clear interest. (OMWF) He think he understands this, but she backs away - only to change her mind and kiss him *again*. (Tabula Rasa)

Come Smashed he's getting unsure what the hell she's trying to say, since she keeps changing her mind. The only thing he's reasonable sure of is that she's attracted to him (but is denying it).

He doesn't have a soul, the closest thing to a moral compass is Buffy's guidance. And Buffy is in no state to guide him anymore. So - when she declares him to be 'evil and disgusting' he tries a different tack. (After all, what has he got to lose?) And what do you know? Sexytiems ensue!

It's not about whether or not he has the right (obviously he doesn't), but whether this makes sense for the characters considering where they're at. And Spike? Doesn't really have problems with overstepping people's boundaries.

Yes, he is pushing her, but she is letting him. And she's the one with the power. It's not healthy, it's not a good thing - because she's playing with fire. And yet... "I want the fire back" she sang. And now it's burning merrily...

(If you want it all laid out more clearly (because comments are awkward and small and easily misinterpreted), I wrote an essay once: Metaphors in Season 6. Spoilers, natch. Well, it's one essay amongst many, but it's my major one dealing with S6.)