absolutely thats why corbyn brought the balance of trade numbers back into mainstream by talking about it in his conference speech, but what osborne found was encoring borrowing was much much easier than actually building the economy, and in low inflationary times you can get away with it until possible you build up[ so much debt the whole system crashes (see Hyman Minsky) Basically there are already signs of some on the right coming round to the need for government investment trump and stephen crabb for 2, this will eventually be the mainstream conservative position its just how long how much suffering how many quasi fascist/nasty nationalist governments round the world we see first .The tories/republicans took our keynsian clothes in the 50's not because they liked redistributing wealth but because it was teh only thing which works in times like these,' 'if you don't believe in teh new deal you have no place in the political mainstream' Eisenhower, ' i guess were all Keynesian now' nixon

hi Simon, yes the mainstream media is not talking about it ;( its a pity because we own the consensus position in economics, totally agree the center and right of the party have no ideas but that go's for teh liberals and the tories, i pointed out to Yvette cooper that her rhetoric made no economic sense she backed down, i asked ben bradshaw what his ideas were to rebuild the british economy, he admitted he had no idea. its widely acknowledged by those of us who can see both sides of the debate that in the 70's the reformist economic ideas were all coming from the right, From an economic historians point of view the 2 big turning points were the 1973 oil crisis which broke Keynesian stopping the wage rises people had got used to and lead to thatcher and reagan the new economics in britain and america. As well as each 1% of growth needed a 2% increase in debt since 1980, osborns plan fro this parliament was to take consumer debt from 150 - 180% of annual income, its a time bomb :)

hi simon your not listening to mcdonnell, to mcdonnells impressive array advisers and fellow travelers we actually have the only intellectually coherent polices to dig us out of this neoliberal debt hole thats why the liberal intelligentsia in economics the elite central bankers and the left of labour are all saying the same thing, we need a new settlement which builds the economy. You may not realise but the intellectual momentum is with the Keynesian (post Keynesian) left, as many on the left conceded that in the 70's intellectual momentum was with the right because the Keynesian settlement was crumbling after the 73 oil crisis now rolls have been reversed.

to rebuild the economy given teh scale of the debt you have left us with we will have to build up high tec industry grow the economy then pay down the debt over 60 years as we and the rich western countries did post war, you only have to read teh precfice and teh conclusion of Keynes general theory to see the way forward, the tragity is it worked once and now we have to persuade neo classical dinosaurs of it all again :(, have you seen adair turner's work , every 1% of growth since 1980 needed 2% increase in debt, its not so much an economic system as a time bomb, neoliberalism is all very well until you run out of other peoples money to borrow ;)

perhaps to rebuild the british economy, which you seam happy to keep drowning in debt :(

hello manicbeancounter :) i did say pre the new tv deal, it was certainly a season which made me believe in football once again :) but look at the tables which compare spend with finishing position for the past few seasons, they often map horribly well, also exemplifying exceptions and ignoring rules is something one hears from intelligent people on the right who can construct an argument but have no regard for the data :) any issues on the wider points which are impractically true ?

in unfettered markets you get 'an accumulation of wealth at 1 pole and an accumulation of misery at the other' marx, this all plays into senator Elizabeth warren's work on the collapse of the middle class, had we finished second a few times as we did in the 90's in the 2000's we would have been in the elite wealth accumulators as it is we are a middle class team(before the recent tv deal) being dragged further and further away from the elite wealth accumulators into the misery accumulating classes, now in society both the radical marx and the liberal (ex republican voter) warren's vision is still being played out, as wealth is transferred from the the underclass, working class and middle class to the elite, debt not social security is the safety net that debt is is not a safety net its a time bomb, for non property owning class (the young, the working and non working poor... ) and for the property owning class can only be paid back if a greater fool takes out a higher debt to buy their property at at a higher value, this bubble is also a time bomb. All you need to know in order to turn your back on 40 years of economic disaster is (from adair turners work) since 1980 every 1% of growth needed a 2% increase in debt, this is a time bomb :)