Morrison you are an utter id10t. That's the nicest thing that could be said about this nonsense. I choose to believe that you are not an out-and-out triumphalist bigot-baiter. I choose to believe that no-one can honestly subscribe to the "We won. Ha Ha." school. No-one won son. We all lost. There is no difference between your stance and that of hard-line Republicans who say McGuinness should not have met with the Queen of England - as she colluded in the murder of those she proclaimed her own subjects. Of course, you weren't actually there, were you son? Obviously the TUV reach-out to Catholic voters still needs some work.

Speaking as a conservative nationalist I'd like to clarify a point for some commenter's on here. The Union Jack is not my "national flag". And yes, you are absolutely correct- I will be happy on the day the butchers apron no longer flies at all. Happy to clear that up...

Up Down!

edmond, I've been reading your posts today, and please allow me to congratulate you on a well-thought out and cleanly fought debate. There's frequent descent in to the depths of this discussion that continues in our society, and precious little civility, so it's nice to read an opinion that strives for better. There are a couple of interesting observations, worthy of consideration - if not definitive - concerning the language we all use to examine the 'beginning' of the Troubles. Because there is a clear delineation of opinion as to the 'start' of the modern era Troubles, I accede authority (mostly) to CAIN and a couple of other sources that I think are fair in the discussion. Generally speaking, opinion in the Unionist/Loyalist tradition is typified by use of inaccurate language that paints UVF/UDA/RUC terror against the Nationalist population as 'retaliatory' in nature. This is an unfortunate but understandable rewriting of many events that would be better served through openness and apology, rather than 'whataboutery'. While the exact start date of the modern Troubles is a moot point, most erudite sources show the UVF et al to have been culpable in a very direct and terrorist way throughout the events of the period. We can explain away our individual prejudices all day to justify any exposition of our viewpoint, but the reality of life for Catholics here is that the UVF is and always has been a band of murderers. For one to stand against the actions of the IRA and condone a (celebration? re-enactment?) of events that led to anti-Catholic savagery is disingenuous to say the least. The motives of these men are not relevant to the mayhem they enacted in the name of their own selfish causes. No matter the name of the cause. Reasonable men who wish our society to thrive and flourish, would do well to leave blame-games behind - admit and apologise for past events - and move forward with the rest of us.

I broadly agree with you. One point, though. I'd like to see the OO pushed aside. It's possible to celebrate one's culture, to include the odd, local, peaceful parade, without the baggage they carry. They are an absolute anathema to the Catholic population, and there is no doubt that they have prolonged the agony of moving on from the troubles. Having senior leadership that holds membership in a sectarian and divisive organisation holds back much goodwill that exists between ordinary Protestants and Catholics.

You don't really understand the word 'republican', do you willie?

We've had several 'celebration of hate' parades this year. This one is far from the largest, nor the most egregious. Wake up and smell the roses, Mr. tongue. It's your community too. Would you rather have politicians you don't like giving speeches you don't agree with - or violent scum-bags running your street?

Wayne, you make a great point. It would come across stronger if you don't put it in all caps. Cheers, mate.

It's always good policing to someone like you until it's your house getting ransacked, your family members getting targeted and your community being destroyed. As we can see - your version of 'good policing' has stopped. You know what I call 'good policing'? When Loyalist thugs are stopped from marching down my streets, and then when they show their true colors and attack the police - they get their arse-handed to them by said police. Now that's good Policing.

There is really no way to check that though, is there? There could be any number of closet republican Protestants on here saying they are Catholics because of fear of intimidation in their own community. It's a foolish road to go down because it's unprovable. All you can do is state your case and stand your ground. If you're right you're right.

You are generally wrong though. All Irish republicans I know are not actually bitter, as we tend to believe that we have made great positive strides in our community. Sectarianism - down. OO on the way out. Brits - almost all left and went home. RUC - gone. etc. etc. You can make fun of us for believing a UI is on the way, but I believe it will come. And I can make a good case in favor of it and against Loyalism without pretending to be a Protestant.