In my view the root of the problem is that we have allowed government into the realm of marriage, which is a religious institution. Right or wrong. the government now provides certain perks and responsibilities that are automatically attached when we marry. The Gay community, whether we like their marriages ar not, are precluded from sharing in these government mandated perks and responsibilities, as well as the associated perks and responsibilities that go along with marriage.

I am a Christian, and I see this in one way and only one way. It is NOT for me to judge my fellow man, AND I am to treat him as I wish to be treated myself. So to me, fairness and equality dictates that if we allow government into marriage, no citizen of this country should be disallowed into the club.

The most simple fix would be that ALL marriages become "civil unions" in the Law books, and Marriage Ceremonies be left in the hands of the religion of our choice. Put "Marriage" into the hands of our churches and keep the legal obligations and perks in the hands of contract law.

Simple.
<grin>

That's got it..

Excellent piece Dave..

The link still isn't working Dave

oddG said ""I am a college student and live in a very pro-obama environment. This is about me trying to get both sides of the story.""

OK oddG, I'll take you at face value here.. Let's begin by relating to Obama's policies in such a way that would affect your life in college.

Imagine for a moment that you are a studious individual that goes the extra mile when assigned something to do by your teacher. You avoid getting caught up in the party life style that you see some of your peers enjoying, and you keep your nose to the grindstone and achieve excellent grades, believing that by doing so you are securing a future for yourself and your family.

Imagine then, when the Dean proposes a "leveling of the playing field" motif that takes the grades of the "winners-of-grade-curve-lottery" and redistributes them to the boyz over in Phi-Delta-Kow who have spent the last 2 semesters having keggers every weekend, and whose grades have fallen behind because of personal choices that precluded them from achieving the same grades that you struggled so hard for.

The Dean may hold up a few of the Delta boyz as examples of sad stories that need your (now mandated) charitable grade contribution, but you would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to NOT see that it was the Delta's CHOICES that left them with lesser grades.. After all, they sat next to you during the SAME lectures, studied the SAME books, had access to the SAME library, etc.. While you studied every weekend, they partied..

The majority of those here see our tax system, and the way it is leveled punitively against the achievers as in my example above, as being a form of slavery.

When we "entitle" a man to the labors of another man, are we not sanctioning a form of slavery.?
If we were to substitute the term "the rich" for black or white, jew or christian, what would you think of a law that singles out a group for "different" treatment under the law.?

In a country that is founded on the simple yet important concept of "ALL equal under the Law" to make a law that has a caveat that singles out a group for a different obligation than their peers is at best an oxymoron, and at it's worst is sanctioning slavery.

Imagine a law that rather than the acceptable caveat of "because they can afford it" said "because they are black" or "because they are jews" or "insert-caveat-here"..

You see.?
It simply can NOT be done and still adhere to "equal under the law"..

Give it some thought..

For those who have a problem with some of us viewing America as a Christian Nation I would offer this advice/challenge.

Consider if the Founders had mutually been inspired by a source other than the Bible, a source that they referenced in their debates and speeches. Would you have a problem with those of us who, 200 years later, felt that the resource our Founders relied upon for inspiration and guidance was an important component to keep in place if we were to remain true to our Founders’ intent.?

If you answer this honestly to yourselves you will probably acknowledge that indeed it would be a necessary component to what/who we are as a Nation.

So I would offer you this challenge. Read the Bible, and do so with no regard to the theological aspects of it. Only read it as a synopsis of man kind, and his societies.

I believe you will find that on that basis alone the Bible is a digitally clear snap shot of mankind, complete with all his flaws and frailties, as well as his good works. View the values/rules you find there, NOT from a religious perspective, but rather from a societal perspective, and you will find that from that angle alone it is well worth the read..

You MAY find yourselves understanding why some of us prefer to keep it in our lives, and feel that removing it’s influences from our society can only cost us in the long run. NOT only spiritually, which is and should be a personal matter, but SOCIETALLY as well.

Give it some thought.

""Just for fun""

I can only speak for myself and respond that I personally don't care where your moral base comes from, so long as you have a moral base. You seem like you have had a rough time with religion in the past and can not get over it.

I personally have a small barbarian (not so small at times) locked up inside that I find is easier to keep chained when I rely on Christ's teachings as a guide in my life and my dealings with my fellow man.. It works for me. Judging you or others is not my job. From a societal stand point it doesn't matter where morals come from, just so long as we have them. Otherwise, society breaks down and eats it's own..

Our founders were very clear on society needing a moral and virtuous populace if America was to thrive and survive as a Nation. They saw divine providence as being part and parcel to that success, and I agree with them.

You are not forced to agree with me or the founders on that score.

But asking those of us who feel that divine providence is a critical piece of the puzzle to not talk about it because Jimmy might think we're crazy "nutts" and therefore won't vote our way, is asking WAY too much..

I already see a way to protect my rights my friend..
It's called the second amendment..

On abortion, I disagree..
There are many reasons why humans of all ilk support life..
In fact, the next time you want to bring a liberal to a possible epiphany try this:

Tell them you just came back from a trip to Florida where you found a sea turtle nest that had just been laid. Tell them there were about 2 dozen eggs and that you took them back to the hotel room and made an omelette..

This will incite the "good liberal" into berating you on the killing of sea tutles..

Retort with the argument that the eggs had just been laid, and therefore were not "viable" out of the shell, so you didn't "kill" anything..

This will get them into a full roll boil over how un-enlightened you are..

At which point just shift gears into the abortion issue..

And watch them dance...

<grin>

mcdonsco said: ""You're the ones that believe in a 2000 year old fairy tale, we're more reality focused. ""

You're entire approach is encapsulated in the statement above.
You are convinced that non-believers are more enlightened than believers, and therefore the believers in a "2000 year old fairy tale" should not exercise their freedom to express their beliefs, as it may hinder an agenda YOU would like to see pushed through.
For the record, I am FOR gay marriage.
A subject that I can give both constitutional arguments for as well as religious arguments for.
And while I debate with my friends over the matter, I would never suggest that they give up their right to express their beliefs just so there are less ripples or hurdles to deal with..
This site is ALL INCLUSIVE..
Meaning that you as a atheist and I as a Christian are equally welcomed here..
So rather than carry this bone of contention that you seem to have about Christians expressing themselves, why not agree to disagree and move on.?

mcdonsco said: ""Drives me NUTTS that you JUST DO NOT GET IT""

That's classic my friend..
Though I'll bet you won't see the irony..
"Irony can be pretty Ironic sometimes"

<grin>

Mcdonsco,
At some point in your life you acquired your core values. As an atheist, you may have acquired those values through various sources, but you hold those values as core to your beliefs.

Speaking for myself I can only say that at my core I am a Christian.
It is part and parcel to who I am, what I am, and what I want to pass on to my children.
My forefathers had the wisdom to place certain rights into law to guaranty that my religious views could not be robbed from me.

Yet you suggest I should put them down voluntarily so as to impress who again.?
France.?
Istanbul.?
Or the flaming liberal that wants to take away a few of my GOD given rights.?

Sorry my friend, you and France will just have to deal with my "lunacy" when it comes to God. .