LW1's letter is an exercise in hypocrisy if it is real but I really think that other people on this site need to start think out of the box more when less than experience men start fretting about concerns about experience. You might think these things are horribly antiquated ways looking at the world but from my perspective, its about not wanting to get what I consider a raw deal or to be put through the closest male equivalence of "slut-shamming."

A lot of the advice around advice around sex given on this advice basically boils down to listen to the instructions that you are given. The advice on how to get to the sex is pay very close attention to some obscure non-verbal signals and hope you read things right. From my perspective this roughly translates as "you are going to have to work and work without much if any contribution back from the woman you want before you get to sex but than have to hand over the keys to the car like a drunk driver if you are not experienced." Something like this makes me feel about hot as slut shamming does to most women, not very. The entire thing seems to be that you need to be just as skilled in romance/seduction as a much more experienced man and there will be no quarter made for lack of experience but you are going to be painfully reminded of your lack of experience when it comes to the physical aspects of a relationship. This isn't fun at all.

For the naysayers, this article generally only applies to some rather specific social contexts like bars and clubs. It can theoretically apply to daytime events like riding the bus or getting lunch or even shopping for groceries but that would be significantly rarer. If your going to a bar and club and are a little observant and proceed with ordinary caution with how you strike up a conversation with a person without causing offense. People generally go to bars, clubs, and concerts for socialization and won't attack you if you get the signals wrong. All that needs to be done is that you back down gracefully.

Online dating or some other sort of activity explicitly organized around the idea of finding a mate. People generally participate in online dating or singles events with the intent of actually looking for a romantic partner. If you go to these events than chances are you can read anything with a sign of generosity rather than caution.

People who don't really work well in bars or other nigh-time entertainment venues for whatever reason are going to need someplace to meet other people.

Well excuse me for misinterpreting somebody who communicated more than anybody else after a date. When your main experience is with a bunch of hard nos or just a complete break in communication than somebody willing to communicate comes across as interest.

Is there any bend or compromise on any of these? I'm sincere about this question. 2 and 1 aren't personal problems but the rest can be. I understand about not wanting to be a therapist to your boyfriend or girlfriend, especially early in the relationship from some very recent personal experience*, but neediness sometimes seems to get defined as wanting any return of affection before the other party is ready. For number five, being bad in bed, you need to express the right level of confidence regardless of your level of experience. You can't say that you have no experience, or much of any idea of what your doing, and your just trying to guess as best you can as your going along. Having a sense of humor is usually not a problem but I really don't like the feeling that it creates in me that I'm an amusing imp who exists to be a jester like figure. People of both genders inspire this feeling so it isn't an exclusively a dating thing.

*I went on a date with a woman in early November and we actually did communicate afterwards for about a month and half afterwards. Most of this was her complaining about how busy she was at work to me. I was always the one that had to initiate the conversation and it never occurred to her to contact me on her own initiative or inquire about how my day was going. I tried arranging future encounters, which she apparently could not make because of a combination of work and other social obligations, which is fair enough. I eventually decided to tell her that either she needs to put at least some effort into this or I move on. I moved on. It doesn't prevent me from feeling that I've been stripped mined and I don't think that wanting her to inquire about me or make some contact on her own initiative is really being that needy.

You know nothing. I have done the work but the amount of work necessary keeps increasing. It is a relentless drive of improve and pursue, improve and pursue to get nothing but a hit in your face and exhaustion. It never ever seems to be enough. Its bend, compromise, turn, and twist and nothing. Its do this and do that and fail. You accuse me of setting up myself for failure but your system gives me the worst of all world where I have to provide everything for nothing.

I agree entirely. Even if you are willing to do in the work, your still not allowed to be unhappy or not satisfied about the state of your dating life ever even if you want to be.

The way I see it is that my chances for the type of relationship I want are effectively nil under any possible romantic and sexual system but more restrictive systems might confer some status on me for my lack of a love life because it is seen as a virtue of sorts. Your proposed system literally offers me nothing. Not only are my chances for even an ordinary romantic relationship on the extremely low side but it is making extraordinary demands for support and loyalty on me in return for nothing but a giant grind down. Millions of people will always interpret lack of romantic and sexual success as a sign that you are a loser even though a minority might kind of claim otherwise. There is no place to escape from those who have better romantic and sexual success than you. Your system requires that I hide my loneliness because that is a sign that I'm a dreaded "nice guy" and desperate, which is a giant attraction killer. In order to avoid not appearing desperate, you need to suppress your sexuality while others get to freely express their sexuality to the world. And there is no relief. Maybe your right, maybe your system is the best of all systems but that doesn't make it easy to bear.

Its not the same sort of need as oxygen in that the absence of romance or sex won't kill you but romantic love and sex are still something that makes life a lot easier and you know this. You can't have it both ways. You can't simultaneously advocate against sexual systems based on abstinence, the denial of desire, and sublimation of sexual wants into other outlets but also hold that some people are going to have to just deal with life long celibacy, romantic frustration, and sublimation of sexual desire into other outlets.

Why should people in my position support a system that allows others to have seemingly endless romantic and sexual success, many more to have adequate romantic and sexual success, and we to have nothing? Why should I support a system where I have to wait much longer, and do incredibly more work just to get into any type of romantic relationship at all let alone a good one or the type of one I need or want?