en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/855707 Comments by Jordan http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/3388/#IDComment88004241 Yes, "when people are cloaking themselves in shrouds of secrecy for fear of admitting their imperfections, something is wrong." I agree with that. But such "shrouds of secrecy" stem from a faulty perception of forgiveness (not from an "obsession with sin"). Sin is shameful, but forgiveness in Christ is liberating. If only Christians would be more faithful to forgive others as the Lord commands in Scripture. Thu, 22 Jul 2010 04:36:37 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/3388/#IDComment88004241 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/3388/#IDComment88003857 Mrs. White, I agree. The prevalency of divorce among Christians is oxymoronic at best. Christians should be the one standing tallest and strongest for marriage ... yet all too often some professing Christians are among those desecrating it. Thu, 22 Jul 2010 04:32:24 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/3388/#IDComment88003857 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/3388/#IDComment88003274 I agree that the "prosperity gospel" is terrible. I'd even go so far as to say it is "another gospel," all of which Paul condemns in Galatians 1. Thu, 22 Jul 2010 04:26:02 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/3388/#IDComment88003274 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/3388/#IDComment88003009 Wow, Jon! Excellent post! Thank you for sharing this today, I completely agree. I'm specifically reminded of 1 Timothy 1:15-17. "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." Thu, 22 Jul 2010 04:23:02 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/3388/#IDComment88003009 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/predicting-the-end-of-the-world-too-often/#IDComment88001677 That 6-point list was intentional, I'm sure. (If someone else has already said this I apologize.) It's not quite the holy 7. And if you put two more 6's behind this 6-point list, you DO have the mark of the beast. Awesome post, Jon. Thu, 22 Jul 2010 04:07:54 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/predicting-the-end-of-the-world-too-often/#IDComment88001677 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87602413 You still misunderstand me. There is a WAY to present the gospel while being (and appearing) genuinely concerned for the lost person not by saying "in love" like a magic spell but by saying EVERYTHING about the gospel in a loving and truly concerned way. I've done this with a staunch atheist before, and while he was not converted, he did say he respects my views because he could tell I genuinely cared about him. I'm not ignoring everything you're saying. I'm testing what you say according to Scripture, as I should as a Christian. I'm also seeing more and more that we are misunderstanding each other, and so I bid you good night and may God truly bless you, Mr. Wong. I sincerely mean that. Tue, 20 Jul 2010 02:47:39 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87602413 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87602294 Mr. Wong, how has the Catholic Church been successful? Have they genuinely converted people to faith in Christ, or have they converted people to faith in sacraments? (I would argue for the latter in most cases based on Catholic doctrine.) I am not dismissing everything you say because you're not a Bible beleiver. The things you say which I dismiss (I've not dismissed all of it, I have agreed with you once or twice) I dismiss because they go against the Bible directly. Tue, 20 Jul 2010 02:47:29 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87602294 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87582116 Mr. Wong, you misunderstand me. Didn't I make it clear elsewhere that proper evangelism "speaks the truth in love"? If I didn't make that clear, I apologize for my unclarity. When witnessing, I do not accuse or give a "high-handed" lecture. I present the truths of Scripture IN LOVE. That is the key. And if someone says, "I don't believe that, leave me alone," then I leave them alone. I do not push people toward Christ when I share the gospel with them; rather, I present Him as the only hope of salvation and the only hope of truly abundant life. As I have said before, I'll say it again. Being "super-generous, super-caring, and super-loving" is great and vital. But that alone will not bring about the salvation of a lost person. A presentation of Christ as the sinner's substitute is needed for salvation to occur. The Bible makes this excruciatingly clear. But you have already told me what you think of the Bible, and so that's all I have to say. Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:23:31 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87582116 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87553502 I keep quoting Scripture not only because things should be biblically-based but also because most people who read this conversation would be Christians, who might like to know what the Bible has to say about what we've been talking about. Ah, there's the rub. I'm not aiming for a response when I talk with a non-believer. I'm aiming for a miracle (see below). I actually agree with you that "a true atheist does NOT, by definition, believe in the basis for you accusing him of wickedness." I agree with that whole-heartedly. I realize that your last question, "So why would he break down and ask for salvation upon being told of it?", is probably rhetorical, but I will attempt an answer: my God is a miracle-working God who can change people's hearts. He changed Paul's heart (surely you won't argue with that; Paul went from persecuting the Church to being its biggest proponent), He's changed mine, and He changes countless other hearts even now. Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:45:15 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87553502 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87434587 Mr. Wong, I get what you're saying. Peter was not a follower of Paul. Peter was a disciple of Christ LONG before Paul was. Peter is in all the gospels, Paul doesn't get converted until Acts 9. Peter was no follower of Paul. I get your point though. (Luke was also the writer of the Book of Acts, not Peter/Paul whoever the antecedent of "his" is.) I know exactly what you were saying, Mr. Wong. I was merely speaking from Scripture. And yes, I do realize that you are completely antagonistic to Scripture. Mon, 19 Jul 2010 03:51:09 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87434587 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87356860 Very simply, I leave you with 1 Corinthians 1:20-25. "Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." Is the cross folly? Is this belief that all people are fundamentally bad and in need of a Savior folly? Yes and yes. But "it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe." I freely admit that preaching the gospel will repulse some if not many, "but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ [is] the power of God and the wisdom of God." Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:10:07 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87356860 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87356838 I agree with you that each gospel targets a different audience, but EACH gospel presents Jesus as the Savior from sin, the punishment for which (apart from forgiveness in Christ) is "hellfire and brimstone," to use your own terminology. Let us use our rational minds for a moment, Mr. Wong: Jesus claims to save people. From what? Sin. Therefore, if people do not realize that they are sinners in need of saving, they will NEVER believe Jesus for salvation. Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:09:57 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87356838 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87356695 I agree that setting a good example IS important, but setting a good example will NOT by itself convert someone. As Paul writes in Romans 10:17, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." Not the example of believers, but "the word of Christ." So while I agree that being "a good ambassador for your faith" is vital (as Paul makes clear in 2 Corinthians 5:16-21), personal evangelism is also required. The two go hand in hand; neither is effective if one contradicts the other. In fact, in that same 2 Corinthians passage I just cited, Paul gives the evangelical statement of all Christians: "we implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." Reconciliation requires past sin, ie, something to be reconciled about. Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:09:30 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87356695 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87356544 Mr. Wong, congratulations on your marriage to a Christian. Paul explains the benefits of being married to a believer in 1 Corinthians 7. Of course you're telling me my approach is wrong. I get my approach from the Bible, and as an unbeliever you would obviously disagree with much of what the Bible says. I'm telling you it does work. I have seen it work with my own two eyes, and God declares through the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 55:11 that His word will not return to Him void but will accomplish its purpose. Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:08:56 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87356544 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87353908 I agree with you on this one, actually. HOWEVER, salvation is not salvation if we're not saved from something (namely, our sins and the punishment thereof). The key is to not judge people while still lovingly imploring them on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20). Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:54:30 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87353908 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87353868 You are directly contradicting Acts 9 and numerous other passages. People should care what Paul said because his writings are equal among "other Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16). Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:54:02 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87353868 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87253494 Mr. Wong, I do not find that humorous. If you met Jesus as Paul did you would believe. Please forgive me for misinterpreting you. Now that I understand what you are saying, I can clarify my own viewpoint, which I get from Paul (whose writings Peter equates with the "other Scriptures," 2 Peter 3:16): each should be emphasized to the extent that the Bible emphasizes it. Some texts emphasize one over the other; but the Bible teaches both, therefore both must be taken into account. That's what I'm saying. Sun, 18 Jul 2010 04:28:49 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87253494 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87252497 Mr. Wong, the Bible mandates what the gospel presentation amounts to. To some it's the aroma of death, to others it is the aroma of life. I am not responsible for the soil I encounter; I am responsible for being faithful to deposit the True Seed. I have never read a Chick tract in my life. I've never even heard of those. The Word of God will accomplish its purpose. God gives people faith, and He gives it to them through His Word, the Bible. So I will present what the Bible says to unbelievers in the hope that God would open their eyes to its truth. He opened my eyes, and the eyes of countless others. He can open more eyes even now. I firmly believe that. I do not appreciate your tone, Mr. Wong, but I realize you are a non-believer. What has caused this anger/frustration I'm sensing? You seem angry in your response, if not indignant. What has riled you so much against the gospel, Mr. Wong? Sun, 18 Jul 2010 04:23:17 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87252497 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87250605 Yes indeed. Nevetheless, it is very important that we Christians show people their sin when sharing Christ with them. Because if they don't believe they need saving from sin, they won't believe that Christ has saved them from that sin. We should definitely call the lost to Christ! That's one of the great privileges of being a Christian. Sun, 18 Jul 2010 04:12:34 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87250605 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87249938 Amen! Christians should be the most forgiving people on earth. "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful." (Luke 6:36) Amen! Sun, 18 Jul 2010 04:08:55 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/07/too-much-grace/#IDComment87249938