en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/3498155 Comments by riveroffire http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-colossians-120#IDComment184118911 Also, the reconciliation that Paul mentions in verses 20 and 21 are not two different kinds of reconciliation. Paul makes this plain by associating reconciliation with peace in both verses. See also Eph. 2:16, where the salvific nature of reconciliation is painfully clear. Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:44:53 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-colossians-120#IDComment184118911 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-colossians-120#IDComment184052818 As is the case with your arguments concerning 1 Cor. 15, Rom. 5 and Phil. 2, your entire argument here is predicated on a simple logical fallacy, namely a false alternative. You claim that because a passage is Christological, that it does not address soteriological issues. This is a silly claim that is easily proven false by examining the very passage in question here. As MacDonald notes, the passage speaks about Christ reconciling "all things" through His work on the Cross. You quote Lohse, but you shoot yourself in the foot in so doing. Here is the quote you provided: "The hymn emphasizes the universal significance of the Christ-event by exhibiting its cosmic dimensions and by speaking of salvation for the whole world, including the whole creation.” Here Lohse explicitly states that the passage is soteriolgical, or do you suppose that Lohse does not view the "salvation of the whole world" as a soteriolgical issue? C'mon, Jeremy! Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:43:25 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-colossians-120#IDComment184052818 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment183372247 " As I said below, this would contradict the central theological idea for Paul's theology: the nature of being 'in Christ'." Where is the contradiction? That salvation is in Christ does not imply that some will never find salvation in Christ. Yet another logical fallacy. Mon, 15 Aug 2011 22:06:13 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment183372247 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment183371931 "It is a hymn praising Christ, his nature and work." And since when is Christ's work not a soteriological issue? Mon, 15 Aug 2011 22:04:48 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment183371931 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment183356300 "This passage is not soteriological as salvation is nowhere in view." You're going to have to better than this, good Sir! For as it stands, you are merely begging the question. Your arguments against the universalist reading of these passages have been very weak. You can do better. Why not give Talbott's arguments another look over so that you can adequately address said arguments? Mon, 15 Aug 2011 20:53:40 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment183356300 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment183355451 You claim that the Philippians passage does not deal with salvation, but you provide no evidence for this. Unfortunately for your argument, pointing out that the passage focuses on the nature of Christ does not constitute evidence that Paul doesn't have a soteriological truth in mind as well. Your reasoning is simply fallacious. As I pointed out to you earlier, the Isaiah passage that Paul quotes is lifted from a soteriological context. Moreover, Paul explicity relates the universal confession of the Lordship of Christ to His work on the Cross (v.8). It is also interesting that Paul elsewhere associates confessing Christ's Lordship with salvation (Romans 10:9, 1 Cor. 12:3). I also ntoe that you never actually addressed what Talbott and Johnson (correctly) noted about the Greek word translated here as 'confess.' Mon, 15 Aug 2011 20:49:44 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment183355451 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment182938389 Isaiah 45:23 not a soteriological context? Hmmmm. Verse 22 reads, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth." Besides, you speak as though Paul cannot be addressing both Christological and soteriological ideas in one context. Sun, 14 Aug 2011 06:57:26 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and-philippians-29-11#IDComment182938389 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and1-corinthians-15-22-2#IDComment182904300 ‘"in Christ all who are in Christ will be made alive" What a pitiful tautology! Sun, 14 Aug 2011 03:15:56 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/a-pauline-universal-salvation-universalism-and1-corinthians-15-22-2#IDComment182904300