A European Voice Comments

asquith

Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:08:18 +0000

"demonising carbon dioxide, a trace gas that is vital to the existance of life on this planet, is pure rubbish" Is anyone "demonising" carbon dioxide? There are those, myself amongst them, who think that humanity emitting more & more of it is bad news & will have adverse effects on the climate & environment in general, which is emissions should be reduced alongside a general drive to reduce the pollution we cause. How we're meant to be "demonising" CO2, or somehow objecting to its very presence in the atmosphere, is beyond me. Just because it is useful in the quantities in which it exists in nature, doesn't mean we should keep knocking it out. Aquatic plants are useful, but they can suffocate a lake if they overreach themselves. So it is with carbon dioxide.

McDuff

Wed, 24 Jun 2009 01:48:33 +0000

I doubt it, WML. If the last election is anything to go by, people who change from Labour are going to stay at home instead. Those who don't will no doubt shift to Tory in sufficient numbers to secure a majority, and our electoral system is just broken enough to ensure that the smaller parties will stay locked out as usual.

McDuff

Wed, 24 Jun 2009 01:45:26 +0000

What are you on about? I'm pointing out that "traditional" marriage was, contrary to popular belief, one part of the patriarchal norms that held women to be inferior to men. You, enlightened gentleman that you no doubt are, aren't traditional at all. You're a child of the 20th century western radicals who changed the social norms in a tiny fraction of the world, albeit not yet sufficiently. Maybe you might want to try taking the defensive hat off and read for comprehension rather than through a lens of preconceptions about what you think I'm saying. The authoritarianism that's been "creeping up" has been doing so in plain sight, but I don't think the EU is to blame for that. European institutions have been some of the few things standing between our national government and ever increasing surveillance and ostensible "anti-terror" legislation that has far more wide-reaching effects than agricultural subsidies. I didn't see much European influence in the counter-terrorism bill, but I did do an interview with a man who was locked up for daring to take a picture of the road outside the Labour Party Conference in Manchester under that legislation. I didn't see any EU Commissioners call for increasing the time we could lock people up without charge in this country, but I saw our national government and my MP do just that. I noticed our government ignore the ECHR ruling that said they can't keep the DNA of people who have been acquitted of a crime on a permanent police database, and you're telling me Europe's the creeping fascism we have to fear? Dear God man, what planet are you living on? As for how we did before the common market, well, the history shows that in the postwar period we did various levels of "badly". So, how did we cope? Not especially well. Sorry to rain on the nationalistic parade but we're not the superpowered empire we once were and we don't get to steal from other nations to fund our largesse unless we gang up with other countries to do it. Inter-EU spats amount to nothing compared to the benefit we get from sharing a giant protectionist bloc with the entire European continent, and every politician who isn't in one of the far-right nutbar parties realises that actually leaving the EU would be economically disastrous and political suicide, for reasons that have nothing to do with EU propaganda and everything to do with how international trade actually works. Your political intuition is, apparently, as out of date as your scientific knowledge. Industrial chemists babbling on about atmospheric CO2 like they could spot a strange attractor if it bit them. I'm sure you were great in the field of lubricants or plastics, but they obviously never included fluid mechanics and feedback loops in your education. Still, you know what they say about chemistry - it's what you do if you're too drunk at university to learn the maths required for physics. It's futile pointing out the number of grievous fallacies in your comments. I just wanted to make it clear that you're arguing with what more or less amounts to voices in your head, and then accusing me of being closed minded and "pigeon-holing" you<i/> as something I never said nor even implied. The irony is so thick I could spread it on toast.

Ordinary Bloke

Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:43:36 +0000

Mr. McDuff, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that any male who believes in traditional family values is a misogynistic, bigoted creep. Now I'm certain there are such creeps about, even in this aimless, post modern society. They exist, it's true. But so do decent people and I've known a lot of those in my time. So much for your theory. As far as gender rights are concerned you might be shocked by this but homosexualtiy has been with the human race for a long time, probably since we got up on our hind legs and walked upright. Quite a few of us have had time to get used to the idea although there are those who will never come around to the idea. I don't see it as much of an issue at all but clearly you do. Commiserations. If you don't understand why the majority of British people want out of the EU then I feel sorry for you. It must have been hard swallowing all that Euro codswallop. As far as CAP is concerned, how on earth did our famers manage before we were conned into joining the Common Market and legislated into an ever tightening straightjacket? And how on earth did our fishing fleets cope before they were quota'd out of business and the Spanish took our fish? That mega carbon credits scam is the last straw. And yes, I'm one of those AGW deniers. It might have something to do with the fact I'm a retired industrial chemist who understands that demonising carbon dioxide, a trace gas that is vital to the existance of life on this planet, is pure rubbish. And talking of weasel words"climate change" just to fudge the issue. And yes, there is such a thing as climate change. Like homosexuality, it's been with us a very long time. Billions of years in fact. You'd think certain people who ought to know better would have noticed by now. I don't know about you but I wasn't asked if I wanted to vote on a treaty that tells me that I'll be committing a criminal offense by saying that the EU is FUBAR. You might welcome the fascism that is swiftly creeping up on us. I don't. And no, I don't have a problem with xenophobia but that could possibly be because my maternal grandmother was French. You might like to reply at length to this but I will not be engaging further. There wouldn't be much point. Your narrow mind already has me pigeonholed. People can't be family minded AND liberal? Bullshit!

WoollyMindedLiberal

Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:59:23 +0000

Labour spin-doctors hardly need to exert themselves to make Cameron's band look ridiculous, a simple bland reporting of the facts is quite sufficient and there is no need for embellishment. I am amazed that Cameron went ahead with his daft pledge, clearly he is not as clever or as smooth an operator as planned. This gives me hope that the UK can be saved from him and the rest of the Bullingdon Boys Only Club next year.

McDuff

Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:13:06 +0000

If your wife is equal and has never been considered as property, Mr Bloke, you don't have traditional family values at all. You're only a few brief generations off being positively radical. There's nothing traditional about equal gender rights, which is why those who use "traditional views about marriage" to hide the fact that it's all about the gays are weaseling their way out of saying what they mean. But I'm sure if you think it's bigoted to point out some facts about history you're entitled to your opinion.

As far as the EU is concerned, I have only three words to say about it: out, out, OUT!

I see. Do you have any suggestions for a phased withdrawal, or would we simply unilaterally break all the treaties in one go? How do you propose we deal with the issue of adjusting to trading with the EU as an outsider rather than an insider - presumably we'll have to have some kind of overhaul of our regulatory structure, not to mention new bodies to deal with the sudden increase in tariff complexity. Would we create new organisations to replace the current subsidies to farmers under the CAP, or would that program be stopped? Would we also withdraw seperately from the ECHR, and if so, what safeguards would you put in place to guard against creeping domestic authoritarianism? Or am I to assume that by "out out OUT" you in fact mean that you have some sort of mild distaste for the French and no real idea about what European institutions actually do whatsoever? Now there's a "tradtional" position, sir.

Ordinary Bloke

Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:33:25 +0000

I'm married and have traditional family values. My wife is my equal and has never been considered as "property". I don't have an opinion on gays either way because what they do behind closed doors is their business. However, I can certainly spot a bigot when I see one, Mr. McDuff. As far as the EU is concerned, I have only three words to say about it: out, out, OUT!

Chris

Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:28:40 +0000

I see you think you know what 'weasel words' are, McDuff. You might look up 'straw man' next time you have a minute away from convincing yourself that you're clever in the teeth of the evidence.

asquith

Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:26:48 +0000

Let's be fair though, the "Law and Justice" are absolute clowns, & they were turned out of office within a very short space of time because they were so woeful. You'd be better off with Civic Platform, who at least make some vague form of sense. I was very interested by the Polish elections as they seem essentially to be a conflict between two wings of the Conservative Party, the "Tories" & the "Whigs". Reading the relevant ConHome threads from the time would be a fascinating experience. Unfortunately, I have got indigestion as a result of last night's meal so I cannot be arsed :)

Cabalamat

Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:56:56 +0000

On the success of "joke" candidates such as the Swedish pirates The Pirate Party is not a joke, it's the fastest-growing political movement in Europe. it was only founded 3 years ago, and already has 1 MEP (2 after Lisbon is passed) and 1 MP (in Germany). Furthermore, PP was the most popular party for voters under 30, and is generally very popular with younger voters and young people who are not yet old enough to vote. As time goes on, more of these people will be voting PP and it'sd vote share will go up, in Sweden and across Europe. The factors that led to PP success in Sweden -- governments trying to take freedom away from the Internet -- also exist across Europe, which is why PP will take off throughout the EU. PP got 7% of the vote in Sweden, and in the next EU elecytion in 2014 it'll probably get 7% Europe-wide. PP will also do well in national elections and by 2020 will probably be in power in at least one country. There's a Pirate Party of the United Kingdom, and if you value your freedom on the Internet you should consider joining.

McDuff

Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:32:20 +0000

"people with traditional views about marriage", of course, being weasel words for "bigots". People with "traditional" views about marriage actually tend to think that women are transferrable property from fathers to husbands, and that gays need to stay in the closet where they belong. As for bracketing such folk with Nazis, I don't believe Mr Garton-Ash forced anybody to personally join the ragtag new grouping. They bracketed themselves. I'm sure it's only coincidence, though, that reactionary self-publicists like Hannan end up as bedfellows with fruitloops and bigots.