en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/1743568 Comments by jdens http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/getting-the-bus-all-wrong/#IDComment109095885 I do that too! Wed, 10 Nov 2010 22:19:41 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/getting-the-bus-all-wrong/#IDComment109095885 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment109064476 Hmm... My comment to you was in reply to what seemed (to me) like a very condescending rebuke to Michael ("You realize you just compared God to man, right?"). My point was simply that Michael's comparison was a valid one, as Jesus did the same thing, repeatedly. I wasn't arguing about the nature of love, although I would tend to agree that wholesale slaughter probably doesn't fit in with even the toughest of tough love. I appreciate your attempt to educate me on the continuity of the Bible, but again, it does come across a little on the condescending side. I'm more amused than offended, but maybe that's me being condescending! As for contradictions, there are plenty throughout the Bible. It doesn't make it any less "true", and it doesn't make God inconsistent. It is a true reflection of how different people in different times have tried to reconcile what is happening/ has happened to them with their relationship with God. Or maybe it's a true reflection of how different people have interpreted their relationship with God in light of their present experiences and past history. Revision and exposition have happened all along. Anyway, I'm with you on finding fault with the prosperity gospel, though maybe not for exactly the same reasons. Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:50:30 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment109064476 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108823573 Yeah, I'm glad that in the tradition I'm in now, "long" is a 20 minute sermon instead of 15 min. But oh have I had to wait through some lengthy sermons in my life! Part of it I guess is cultural, and there are different expectations everywhere you go, but part of it is also respect. The respect should not be a one-way street from the congregation to the preacher; it should be reciprocated, and a speaker that doesn't respect his or her audience by preparing adequately to make the desired points within a reasonable time frame is not respecting the audience. Then again, I think in some traditions, preachers feel like the more they go on, the more "money's worth" the congregation is getting. Your monkey story, by the way, is hilarious, but I couldn't possibly get offended by it, as that could have come straight from the mouths of at least half my family. Tue, 9 Nov 2010 14:31:49 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108823573 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108804217 haha and shake your head conspicuously in disgust! Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:12:02 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108804217 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108801884 Evening services can be an awkward way to start somewhere--they tend to be more informal and more intimate, as you said. It's easier to start off at the main Sunday service. But good for you for trying. Tue, 9 Nov 2010 11:54:12 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108801884 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108801240 This is awful, I know, but sometimes it feels so good to be indignant at the wrongness of what's being preached that I'd rather stay for the fun of it, and spend my time coming up with all the reasons it's wrong. It's almost like a brain-training game. I think I must naturally be a little contrary. :( But you know, there are so many things I don't know what I think about, that when I hear something and can say, "That's wrong, and here's why", it feels good. It also feels good to hear something and know the rightness of it--the brain game then is to start connecting it and applying it. But back to the wrong stuff--how wrong does it have to be to walk out? There have been a few times I can remember when walking out probably would have been appropriate. One I can recall was several years ago in a charismatic service during which the speaker implied that anyone who had cancer either didn't have enough faith or had some unrepented sin in their life. That, to me, is cruel. Guess what? Not only do you have cancer, but it's your fault! Another big misstep for me is for the preacher or pastor to blatantly back a particular political candidate from the pulpit as "God's choice". I may not walk out, but I certainly won't be going back. Oh and then there was the time the pastor told us at the beginning of the sermon to "take off our thinking hats and put on our faith hats". I wish I had walked out...with my thinking hat firmly in place. Tue, 9 Nov 2010 11:48:50 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108801240 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108798351 I feel like this is a weird part of American Christian culture, something I once heard referred to as our "civic religion"--a strange mix of patriotism and religion, "God and country", as if the two belong in the same category. It kinda bothers me to see the American flag in churches, and the intentionally patriotic services can feel a little too much like triumphalism. Tue, 9 Nov 2010 11:25:36 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108798351 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment108645652 Jesus compared God to man didn't he? And made a similar point to Michael's. What father among you, if his son asked for a fish, would give him a scorpion instead? God may not be subject to the morals of today's society (whatever that means), but I think we do expect God to be subject to God's own goodness. Mon, 8 Nov 2010 23:29:39 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment108645652 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108563897 I don't know. I prefer it to the mentality that the only important part is the sermon, which I know from growing up with family members who were preachers/pastors is often the case, at least in the more charismatic traditions. It's like the worship music at the beginning is just a warm up for the main event. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that church is pointless without communion, I do appreciate the liturgical tradition I'm in now in which the Eucharist is the culmination of the service. I feel a bit cheated if it isn't there. Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:10:42 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/leaving-church-before-its-over/#IDComment108563897 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment108375433 Thanks, Michael. I think that's a great point--Jesus does seem to go out of his way to draw the contrast between earthly kingdoms and the kingdom of heaven/God. Eye for an eye v. turn the other cheek. Lose your life to find it. Etc. As to bad neighborhoods in heaven--it's a funny idea and I kinda like trying to imagine what that would look like, but I tend to think of the kindom of heaven less as a place and more of a system or "reign". Sun, 7 Nov 2010 13:58:38 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment108375433 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment108226671 Thanks for your comments, Rosalind. Interestingly, it seems that most of those parables (in Matthew 13 where the wailing and gnashing of teeth occur) seem to involve people (or weeds, or whatever) pretending to be part of the kingdom, and there's a rooting out of imposters. It reminds me a little of the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain, which I tend to think has less to do with exclaiming "OMG" and more to do with doing things in the name of God that God wants nothing to do with. But I'll admit these parables make me uncomfortable, and rightly so. And I appreciate your input. (Hope I didn't offend with my question--it was an honest question, but I realised on re-reading it that it may sound like I was assuming the worst about you, and that's a terrible thing to do.) Sat, 6 Nov 2010 17:31:19 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment108226671 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107991525 Thanks! I know I haven't even begun to scratch the surface. It's fascinating how the subject has been treated in other traditions as well. Apparently in rabbinical Judaism (I'm using that term, but I honestly don't know the distinctions between various types, something to rectify for sure)...anyway, in at least one Judaic tradition and in Jewish folklore, Gehenna came to be a sort of cleansing purgatory, but it only lasts for a year, and there's no torment on the Sabbath? Is that right? My memory's fuzzy, but it is a really fascinating topic. I'm glad jefflyle's question prompted me to look into it more. Fri, 5 Nov 2010 14:06:43 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107991525 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107989166 I've noticed that, too, and I think it can very quickly turn into an unwelcoming space. Maybe if there were guidelines somewhere for people to use that function? I think it could be used to keep us accountable for our tone and general civility, but it certainly shouldn't be personal. Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:53:34 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107989166 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107975387 The Eastern Orthodox have a really interesting understanding of heaven/hell. According to their doctrine (according to Wikipedia), heaven and hell are not places. Everyone is with God in the end, but whereas the exposure to the purity of God's love may be experienced by some as a joy, it may be a torment to others. I like this quote (totally copied from Wikipedia): "I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna, are scourged by the scourge of love. Nay, what is so bitter and vehement as the torment of love?...It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God...it torments sinners...Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret. —St. Isaac of Syria, Ascetical Homilies 28, Page 141" Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:06:42 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107975387 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107974166 I’d better stop here, or no one will even bother to read it. My point is not to say that no, Jesus didn’t believe in hell, and try to explain away all the references. My point is that hell is a loaded word and conjures up images and associations and assumptions that come from a lot of different sources—biblical, cultural, artistic, and literary. It’s worth giving it another, fresher look with an attempt at putting aside the associations that have accumulated over the centuries. A friend recently paraphrased someone’s take on reading the Bible: every time we read should be as if it were the first time. I’m as guilty as anyone else of bringing my assumptions with me to the table, but the challenge is always to have eyes to see and ears to hear. Fri, 5 Nov 2010 11:56:04 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107974166 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107973879 The first 3 times occur in Matthew 5, in which (after the beatitudes) Jesus says that anyone who violates even the least of the commandments will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Then he goes on to elaborate what these “lesser” commandments might be—not just murder, but anger and contempt for a brother. “If you say ‘You fool’, you are liable to the Gehenna of fire.” So...which is it? Am I least in the kingdom of heaven, or am I burning in hell? But I don’t think that’s the only way to read it. I think the point could be more along the lines of, It’s not just murder that destroys your soul. Anger, contempt, dismissal of your neighbor are not life-giving; they are soul destroying. Don’t think you’re ok just because you haven’t killed someone. He goes on to give further examples, including adultery, to which he adds: “If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell (Gehenna).* 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell (Gehenna)" Again, difficult words to understand, but if you assume (as most do, given the ubiquity of two-eyed, two-armed Christians in this world) that he did not literally mean we should start hacking off or gouging out parts of our body, then I’m not sure why we feel that the “body thrown into hell” must be taken literally. It is used in a metaphorical and hyperbolic context. Fri, 5 Nov 2010 11:54:01 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107973879 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107973369 I have only done the most superficial research, so this is my understanding of it *so far*. The word hell has variously been linked to Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, but it is only Gehenna that is still translated as hell in modern translations, and some don’t even do that, preferring to transliterate it as Gehenna. Sheol and Hades both refer loosely to the grave, the place/state of death to which all are destined, not a reward or a punishment. Gehenna derives from the proper noun of an actual geographical location, the Valley of Hinnom. It is a place associated with child sacrifice (by burning) and destruction. Reminds me of the “the valley of the shadow of death”. Traditionally, it is also the place where the Potter’s Field was located. There’s a lot more to this, but it’s too much for a comment. This word Gehenna occurs 11 times in the gospels in 4 different contexts. It does not occur at all in John’s gospel, and only once in Luke’s. Most of the instances are in Matthew’s, and the ones in Mark and Luke are echoes of what you find in Matthew. (cont...) Fri, 5 Nov 2010 11:51:10 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107973369 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107973062 You know, that's a really interesting question, and I'm glad you prompted me to do a little research on it. Honestly, I often find it much easier to read the epistles than Jesus’ own words. They are often difficult to understand, and he seems to be both harsh and gentle by turns. Harsh with the people who think they’ve got it all sorted out, harsh with people in positions of power and esteem, gentle with the poor, the sick, the burdened, the vulnerable. As a person relatively privileged in this world, I often have to brace myself before opening a gospel. But it’s worth it. Then, too, there is the language that Jesus uses, which is rarely propositional (which seems to be the favoured way to talk about God these days) and often filled with colourful imagery, fiction, metaphor, and hyperbole. Jesus often used imaginative, poetic, prophetic language. It appeals to you less on a rational level than on a gut emotional level. It makes you uncomfortable, and it's meant to. It doesn’t mean that you don’t take his words very, very seriously, but that sometimes the most literal interpretation may not be the most fruitful. It would take an essay at least to adequately address your question, and even then I wouldn't pretend to have the definitive answer, but here's a little bit of where my search on "Jesus and hell" took me. I'll have to break it up a bit, as even though it's not an essay, it's still too long for a single comment. (cont...) Fri, 5 Nov 2010 11:48:33 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107973062 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107959127 I'm really curious why someone would thumbs-down this reply. I realise that some people thumbs-down simply because they disagree with a statement, no matter how reasonably articulated. But this isn't even an opinion. It's an expression of gratitude and willingness to have real dialogue. Thumb-happy people, explain yourselves! Fri, 5 Nov 2010 09:42:38 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107959127 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107956099 I know our conversation here has spun into different topics, but I wanted to stop and acknowledge this story because in truth it is such a testament to lives given over to love. To choose forgiveness rather than revenge is indeed to follow Christ. Thanks for sharing. Fri, 5 Nov 2010 09:11:17 +0000 http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/having-2-gods/#IDComment107956099