My father is a minister at a small church and has been for the past almost 20 years. My parents tried to shield us from the frustrations that came with shepherding a group of imperfect people, but we kids still got glimpses. The biggest issue my father ever had was with the church seeming to put its faith in financial security rather than in God's promises. Desiring a large amount of funds in the bank "just in case" rather than using those funds to support overseas and local missions.

That is something that has always stuck with me and I strive to be a good steward and caring for my family while also not putting my trust in money.

There are always going to be issues in the church until we are all made perfect at the second coming. I find that focusing on how much grace we have been given really makes me that much more able to show grace to others.

Not trying to start an argument, but I am curious what Bible verses you have found that support your thesis that abortion is not the same as murder? I haven't chatted with someone who has based their thesis that abortion is different to murder on the Bible so I really am interested in what you have to say.

Here are several that speak to issue that agree with my thesis.

Life Begins at Conception

Psalm 51:5 – “I was born a sinner – yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.”

"Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you" (Isaiah 46:3-4).

"Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:4-5).

The prophet was sanctified and made holy to God before he was born!

And a verse about John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit before he was born, but still in the time alloted to abort him:

Luke 1:15 - ""For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb."

Just a couple, thanks in advance for responding :)

"Maybe we can also agree that if we truly love as Jesus did, this other stuff really won't matter?"

We can totally agree on that :)

"We don't get to put words in God's mouth."

The Bible does though and it is pretty clear on murder.

Answer me this: should we legalize murder because people are doing it anyway and the rich can get better lawyers to get away from serving time in jail? (O.J. Simpson)

Abortion is killing an innocent baby. Abortion is murder. The Bible states that murder is a sin. It completely boggles my mind that a professing Christian can state that abortion shouldn't be illegal. The only way you can say that and stay consistent is either to repeal all murder and rape laws and state that it isn't the governments place to save souls.

Who speaks for the baby? Who speaks for the victim in a crime? God has given the government power to punish evil, such as murder, rape, theft, etc. Therefore, God declares that murder is wrong, God declares that the government is to punish murderers.

Your only reasonable argument is that the baby isn't a person, but that argument fails too when you read the Bible. David talks about God knowing him before he was even formed. The baby has a soul. The baby is a precious child that Jesus died for to save from sin. Jesus said to let the little children come to Him and not to hinder them. If He places that much value on them, it seems clear to me that we should to.

You call me simplistic when all I do is quote what the Bible says. If you do not care what the Bible says about murder then so be it, our discussion is over, however, if you do choose to care about how Jesus says we are to live our lives then maybe we should follow what He says.

This isn't a conservative vs. liberal issue, Reps care about stopping abortion as much as Dems do, I don't care about either flawed, mostly worthless political party. This issue is about what the Bible says about this issue and it is very clear.

I'll let you have the last word since I doubt I will convince anyone of anything in a forum post.

I don't take your posts as mean spirited at all. I still disagree with you though. :)

I think there is a difference between being a single issue voter and having several issues that you refuse to bend on. I don't vote for anyone just because they promise to ban abortion if they have other stances I disagree with them on, however, I don't vote for people who are pro-abortion because I feel that putting people in power who would continue this practice is not very helpful in our goal of getting this practice stopped.

Jesus and the Bible have much to say on politics, it all comes down to your worldview. Do you believe that the Bible speaks to all areas of life or do you believe that it doesn't? If you believe that it does then anything we do must be viewed through the prism of what Jesus would want us to do in this situation.

Politics and voting is part of life, and Jesus is to be Lord of our lives, so we don't get to put Him aside when we vote.

I'm not a narrow-minded individual at all, as I go through life and get to know the Bible better it becomes more and more clear to me that there is a right and wrong answer on every topic and the Bible speaks to every situation in our lives.

I try to avoid internet debates, even when they are well mannered, so I'll let you have the last word. Been nice chatting with you :)

Not really, my comment was based on the Bible.

Read Joshua. God commanded Israel to kill several nations in Canaan. In the books of the Law there are many places that talk about putting to death rapists and murderers.

Also, I'm very against the Iraq war as it was not justified.

I'm not a single issue voter, however, as you can see from my above comment, I strive to be like Jesus and Jesus would never vote for anyone who wasn't 100% against the murder of babies. Seems simple to me.

You are assuming I'm a Republican for some reason or am in favor of what Republicans are doing against abortion...which is nothing.

All I'm saying is that the Democratic party, and Barack Obama specifically, are very pro-abortion, as someone who lives in Illinois I can tell you that he was in favor of some incredibly pro-abortion laws, and I can't see how a Christian in good conscience can vote for someone who is in favor of murdering babies.

This is not a contrast and compare, not a "lesser of two evils" type thing. We either support baby killers or don't and I guarantee you that Jesus would never vote for for a politician, Dem or Rep, who was not 100% against abortion. And since we are to be like Jesus it makes the choice very simple for me.

I personally can't stand the Republicans or Democrats. However, I cannot comprehend how any Christian can vote for a candidate or send donations to a party that is openly anti-life (pro-choice is the more used term). You can't hide behind it only being "one issue". I don't care how many times you tell yourself or others that you are "pro-life" and just disagree one this one small issue. Millions of babies have been murdered from abortion and the Bible speaks rather strongly about opposing murder, in fact it speaks clearly about caring for the oppressed and it is hard to be much more oppressed than the thousands of unborn babies that are murdered each day.

Please, everyone remember, the government is never the answer, Jesus is the answer. The church was instructed to be caring for the poor, not the government. The fact that the church is failing in this role is no reason to give up and capitulate. We need to get back on track helping others. Paying taxes to the government to "help" the poor does not in any way fulfill Matthew 25.

I try so hard to avoid posting on the internet, but this got to me obviously. :)

Enjoy your latte.

Jon, I love the site.

Started reading the blog after listening to the SCL audio book about 3 weeks ago, my life is now infinitely better than it was before...I think.