i second this, Pey. I see no intellectual dishonesty in the way you choose to believe and live. i think the way you stick with what you believe and stand up to what you don't, inside and outside the baha'i community, is a remarkable thing and I am completely in your corner.

right. that only comes with the future baha'i states.

wait - the LAW of independent search of after truth? a lot of bahais are in big trouble then... but does that mean in a baha'i state laws will only be suggested? not enforced? will we truly get to decide which laws we believe in? what would be the point of that? i imagine that in these future baha'i states, laws would absolutely be enforced. but which ones? baha'i laws, i imagine. which was my original point.

so back to that original point, as an adult child of a bahai in one of these "baha'i states", lets imagine that i am gay. if i want to marry or adopt, i'd have to go to some other country. or what if i want to live with a hetero partner without marrying them - would they send LSA members to my house to harass me, like they do now in the baha'i community? which laws still count in a baha'i state? is this when the financial penalties for sex outside of marraige come in? when a state converts to this new style of government, what would the people who already live there but who are not baha'is do? do they have to leave? if they want to stick with their old laws, do they have to live on a reservation?

a baha'i state, regardless of whether or not their are other states to move to if i don't like it, is a TERRIBLE idea.

farhan, although it was my understanding when i was a bahai that in the future ALL governments would eventually be "baha'i states", lets say for a moment that you are right. this is the same principle that the baha'i community works from currently - agree with us or get out. i think we agree on this. but as you know also, the community includes children. what are they to do if, as they grow older, they decide the baha'i faith is not for them? leave the country? abandon their families? how will that work? hardly conducive to family unity i'd say. ideas are nice. practical application leaves quite a bit to be desired.

but THIS analogy, that of the referee, doesn't apply. and it is grossly misleading.

so how about when the NSA of the US decided to change the health care plan for employees so that it would no longer cover Birth Control? that had a direct effect on employees. and how about when the NSA of Uganda recommended that peaceful LGBT activists be arrested?

it is disingenuous to say that bahai administrations, even currently, have no power over the "temporal" nature of humanity just b/c they have no executive branch, when as you so clearly pointed out, the physical and spiritual nature of people are intricately connected.

i forgot about that one! no popcorn either, huh?

it's true - the House of Worship in Wilmette definitely has holy day observances for bahai holy days, as well as other "holy" events. i've been to them myself. i never saw one for any other other religion's holy days. there is upstairs, where they do the holy stuff, and then the basement where they have all kinds of other events - elections, weddings, meetings, tours, et cetera.

hey sonja - you are the kind of bahai i still love hanging out with. i too believe "the principles" of the bahai faith are a beautiful. i love those shirts - i had one when i was a teenager, and i certainly gave out a lot of those cards. my mom still does.

but i wonder, who actually wrote them? im sure it wasn't an institution of the bahai faith but some individual bahai that wrote down what the faith meant to them, and it caught on. it wasn't censured b/c it was close enough, and, well, it sure makes bahai's look good. but if i wore a t-shirt with the quotes about homosexuality being a spiritual illness and gays being "problem people", you can be damn sure i'd be told by the LSA to take it off. but why is it more okay to start a conversation with one of the bahai teachings that it is another? aren't they all "from god"? is "god" as embarassed by the bahai teachings on homosexuality as most baha'is are? how about a t-shirt that says women can't be on the UHJ? or about the not-yet-applicable financial penalties for sex outside of marraige?

im curious enough (almost) to have those printed up, just to see what happens. would any of you wear them?

farhan, you said of the UHJ that "they are guided by God in their COLLECTIVE function and their decisions are to be considered as infallible, just like a referee is to be considered infallible if we want to maintain unity in any activity". this is a bad anology. referees are not considered infallible, we just make a social contract to play by their decisions until the end of the game so that the specific game can move forward. when the particular game is over, the referee can be reprimanded or even fired depending on the circumstances. if they have done considerable harm, potentially they could even be fined or jailed. this is nothing like the UHJ. not only can no action be taken against them, but even *talk * of them being wrong is enough to get the individual questioning them in SERIOUS trouble.

i wonder why you used the analogy of a referee? to make the UHJ seem like something we already know and accept as a society? to make them less scary? "it's okay - it's like your kids little league." honestly, id rather have a bunch of little league coaches running my religion, especially if i have the right to question or fire them if they are not acting in the team's best interest. but that's not what the UHJ does is it? it acts in *God's* best interest, who is supposedly acting in *our* best interest. and there is a whole complicated structure around protecting that. in order to make an informed decision about whether or not to accept that structure, shouldn't people know as much about it as possible? would you buy a house without reading the contract? reading the fine print?