Lol, good point.

I think "spiritual" is just an euphemism for religious. Hinduism and Buddhism are religions too so SBNR's are just switching one belief system and set of deities for another. The spirit , soul, essence, energy, whatever you want to call it is the central dogma of all religions , sects , spiritual "traditions" , etc so bottom line spirituality, religiosity = belief in the supernatural, same thing really.

What would be interesting to know is why SNBR's think they are special or somehow different from their religious "counterparts".

Really??????

Did you read the "references"section? If you cant see what is wrong with that (and the site) and the whole tragic story of poor lil (probably ficticious) Emma then I hate to say this pal but you need a course on critical thinking skills.

The worst thing is that you are spreading misinformation without even realizing you have a responsibility with your readers, really sad...and dangerous.

What happened to the whole "do no harm" stuff? I guess it only applies sometimes .

Please Don´t bother to reply to any of my comments, this "debate" is a waste of time .

Btw, Celia
I dont know if you know this but (scientific) facts don't come from the Examiner.com or the Dailymail, facts come from government agencies, academic journals or peer reviewed journals, and similars.

Referencing the examiner.com really weakens your argument ( or anyone elses's ) for sure.

Karl , I double dare you to get bit by a rat with rabies and then take Dr Tetyana's advice .
Biases are strong but common sense is stronger (hopefully).

Wow, all of this rhetoric and no references. No credible alternatives proposed. No peer reviewed studies to back up her claims.

The "immunologic dogma" (note the negative evaluative term) on the other hand , tons of evidence to back it up, decades of research.

Cherrypicking information that confirms your biases is not an argument (confirmation bias) nor evidence.

I guess it is better to experience the full force of rabies or polio because vaccines are "bad" .

I think she is right, vaccines save millions of lives not because they work but because the universe, god or the fairies want to.

This woman and people of her kind are a menace to public health.

Of course numbers have changed but it is important to point out that even if all 800 cases are conclusively linked to the vaccine , that is not even 1% of the total 30 million who got the shot in Europe. It is estimated that 150,000 - 500,000 people died of swine flu , without the vaccine there could have been thousands more . http://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/pandemic-global...

Also, although evidence seems to be growing a conclusive causal link has not been established yet and then there are other factors that could have contributed too like genetic predisposition and other airway infections like Mignot from Stanford has already said.

If the link between the vaccine and narcolepsy is conclusively established it still doesn't mean that vaccines are more harmful than the diseases themselves.

Vaccines save millions of lives every year and the benefits outweigh the risks by far.

"Immunization is one of the most successful and cost-effective health interventions and prevents between 2 and 3 million deaths every year. From infants to senior citizens, immunization prevents debilitating illness, disability and death from vaccine-preventable diseases such as diphtheria, hepatitis A and B, measles, mumps, pneumococcal disease, polio, rotavirus diarrhoea, tetanus and yellow fever."

"Ironically, the fact that immunization has made many infectious diseases rare or almost unheard of can lead to the opinion among parents and health professionals that immunization is no longer necessary. Due to gaps in vaccination coverage, diseases like diphtheria, measles and polio are making a comeback. Disease outbreaks affect everyone." From the World Health Organization http://www.who.int/immunization/newsroom/events/i...

The risks have been exaggerated by the anti-vaccine movement but science is not on their side, pseudoscience, misinformation and woo are.

Antivaxers are anti-science not because there is a problem with science, but because there is a problem with them; they are scientifically illiterate, and they don't know how to interpret statistics .

Scare tactics don't equal a good argument.

To them I ask what about people who die or get sicker because of the ineffectiveness of alternative "medicine", what about heavy metals and toxic herbs used in Ayurveda and other traditional "medicine" remedies , how bout all the animal species that are on the brink of extinction thanks to traditional Chinese medicine? Can Reiki and homeopathy cure a ruptured appendix? What about the come back of preventable diseases caused by lack of immunization?

So, in closing, I would love to know what are you suggesting? Should vaccines be banned? Hundreds of people die every year from food allergies, should peanuts and strawberries be banned too?

Part 1

The examiner is not a reliable source of information because it is not a news site, it is a multiuser blogger site that presents itself as a news site , it pays its writers based on page views and writers are not necessarily professionals, journalists. This means that more often than not the material tends to be biased and sensationalistic. In fact if you read carefully the story you linked to you will notice that at the bottom of the story there is a link to the original story meaning the author didn't do any research, she probably just picked the information relevant to her. At the very bottom there is a "suggested by the author" list of stories , you should check it out, I think it says a lot about her biases and lack of objectivity.

The numbers I cited come from these government agencies:
National Institute For Health And Welfare
So far, the THL register for adverse events following immunization (AEFI) has received reports of six cases where narcolepsy has followed vaccination. The number is consistent with the annual incidence of narcolepsy under normal circumstances. However, in addition to the above, AEFI reports have not yet been submitted for a further nine possible cases. The symptoms of all the children with narcolepsy started at the end of 2009 and beginning of 2010.
http://www.thl.fi/en_US/web/en/pressrelease?id=22...

Swedish Medical Products Agency
"In total, there are 12 cases of narcolepsy reported to the MPA from healthcare professionals in Sweden with a suspected relationship to vaccination with Pandemrix. In addition to the cases reported in Sweden and Finland there are a few further cases reported in France, Germany and Norway. An investigation is ongoing, but any relationship between the vaccination and the reported symptoms can not be concluded."

http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/english/All-news/N...

European Medicines Agency

"After careful consideration, the CHMP concluded that the data presented by the Finnish researchers are preliminary and that the evidence presented so far is insufficient to allow conclusions to be drawn, and does not lead to any new concerns regarding Pandemrix or other vaccines, including other influenza vaccines. On the basis of the current evidence, the role of the Pandemrix antigen and its adjuvant on the association between Pandemrix and narcolepsy remains unknown."

"http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/news/2012/10/news_detail_001636.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058004d5c1"

Of course numbers have changed but it is important to point out that even if all 800 cases are conclusively linked to the vaccine , that is not even 1% of the total 30 million who got the shot in Europe. It is estimated that 150,000 - 500,000 people died of swine flu , without the vaccine there could have been thousands more . http://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/pandemic-global...

Also, although evidence seems to be growing a conclusive causal link has not been established yet and then there are other factors that could have contributed too like genetic predisposition and other airway infections like Mignot from Stanford has already said.

If the link between the vaccine and narcolepsy is conclusively established it still doesn't mean that vaccines are more harmful than the diseases themselves.

Vaccines save millions of lives every year and the benefits outweigh the risks by far.

"Immunization is one of the most successful and cost-effective health interventions and prevents between 2 and 3 million deaths every year. From infants to senior citizens, immunization prevents debilitating illness, disability and death from vaccine-preventable diseases such as diphtheria, hepatitis A and B, measles, mumps, pneumococcal disease, polio, rotavirus diarrhoea, tetanus and yellow fever."

"Ironically, the fact that immunization has made many infectious diseases rare or almost unheard of can lead to the opinion among parents and health professionals that immunization is no longer necessary. Due to gaps in vaccination coverage, diseases like diphtheria, measles and polio are making a comeback. Disease outbreaks affect everyone." From the World Health Organization http://www.who.int/immunization/newsroom/events/i...

The risks have been exaggerated by the anti-vaccine movement but science is not on their side, pseudoscience, misinformation and woo are.

Antivaxers are anti-science not because there is a problem with science, but because there is a problem with them; they are scientifically illiterate, and they don't know how to interpret statistics .

Scare tactics don't equal a good argument.

To them I ask what about people who die or get sicker because of the ineffectiveness of alternative "medicine", what about heavy metals and toxic herbs used in Ayurveda and other traditional "medicine" remedies , how bout all the animal species that are on the brink of extinction thanks to traditional Chinese medicine? Can Reiki and homeopathy cure a ruptured appendix? What about the come back of preventable diseases caused by lack of immunization?

So, in closing, I would love to know what are you suggesting? Should vaccines be banned? Hundreds of people die every year from food allergies, should peanuts and strawberries be banned too?

The examiner is not a reliable source of information because it is not a news site, it is a multiuser blogger site that presents itself as a news site , it pays its writers based on page views and writers are not necessarily professionals, journalists. This means that more often than not the material tends to be biased and sensationalistic. In fact if you read carefully the story you linked to you will notice that at the bottom of the story there is a link to the original story meaning the author didn't do any research, she probably just picked the information relevant to her. At the very bottom there is a "suggested by the author" list of stories , you should check it out, I think it says a lot about her biases and lack of objectivity.

The numbers I cited come from these government agencies:
National Institute For Health And Welfare
So far, the THL register for adverse events following immunization (AEFI) has received reports of six cases where narcolepsy has followed vaccination. The number is consistent with the annual incidence of narcolepsy under normal circumstances. However, in addition to the above, AEFI reports have not yet been submitted for a further nine possible cases. The symptoms of all the children with narcolepsy started at the end of 2009 and beginning of 2010.
http://www.thl.fi/en_US/web/en/pressrelease?id=22...

Swedish Medical Products Agency
"In total, there are 12 cases of narcolepsy reported to the MPA from healthcare professionals in Sweden with a suspected relationship to vaccination with Pandemrix. In addition to the cases reported in Sweden and Finland there are a few further cases reported in France, Germany and Norway. An investigation is ongoing, but any relationship between the vaccination and the reported symptoms can not be concluded."

http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/english/All-news/N...

European Medicines Agency

"After careful consideration, the CHMP concluded that the data presented by the Finnish researchers are preliminary and that the evidence presented so far is insufficient to allow conclusions to be drawn, and does not lead to any new concerns regarding Pandemrix or other vaccines, including other influenza vaccines. On the basis of the current evidence, the role of the Pandemrix antigen and its adjuvant on the association between Pandemrix and narcolepsy remains unknown."

"http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/news/2012/10/news_detail_001636.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058004d5c1"

Hi Karl , of course let's do it, like you said this is not about wanting to be right it is about the facts.
Let me examine the information and I will reply to you shortly.