en-us http://www.intensedebate.com/users/270651 Comments by SteveH http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/the-impact-of-mormonism-on-the-enjoyment-of-god-as-an-artist/#IDComment12482301 Aaron, Regarding your comments, I would disagree with your portrayal of God as a "hand-me-down" artist - in other words there is no originality in His creations. God the Father spoke to Moses face to face and declared: Moses 1:3 - 4 "And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease." Moses 1:33 "Worlds without number have I created" For what purpose? God the Father declared to Moses: Moses 1:39 "For behold, this is my work and my glory - to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Further God the Father declares: Moses 2: 1 "I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten (Jesus) I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest." It would inaccurate in LDS doctrine to portray God the Father as a "hand-me-down Artist". Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:30:52 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/the-impact-of-mormonism-on-the-enjoyment-of-god-as-an-artist/#IDComment12482301 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12314884 Aaron, Not to be contentious, but it appears that you truly do not understand what Mormons refer to as a "Testimony". It is much more than a private emotional experience. To the Latter-day Saint a testimony entails personal revelation directly revealed to the individual through the power of the Holy Ghost who bears witness of the truth or through other means of divine revelation. A testimony as personal revelation can take many forms whether it be something as dramatic as a visitation from Christ, the ministering of angels, hearing the audible voice of God, being transfigured, being caught up in the spirit (as the apostle Paul would describe it) and transported to heaven, having a miraculous healing of a terminal disease and so forth. More commonly a Latter-day Saint can receive a testimony of a specific principle of the gospel such as the blessings which come from obeying the law of tithing or the greater spirituality that comes from praying and reading the scriptures on a daily basis. Latter-day Saints affirm that God speaks not just to prophets but all who are willing to listen to Him. This is the great blessing of having modern revelation. Unlike evangelicals, we do not try to muzzle Christ in saying that God cannot speak to mankind in this day and age. Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:38:21 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12314884 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12314690 Gundek, It always amazes me how evangelicals are so ready to reject Christ and his messengers. In the Revelations 11 John reveals in considerable detail the mission of two witnesses (prophets) who will be sent to Jerusalem to preach the Gospel just prior to the Second Coming of Christ. If you sincerely believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible then would not the words and message of these two divinely appointed individuals be of great worth? Or will you reject them because what they say does not identically comport with your Protestant interpretation of the scriptures? Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:19:30 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12314690 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12313762 Aaron, On the contrary, I accept the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine of Covenants because the Holy Ghost has borne witness directly to me of their sacred veracity. It is you who is rejecting Christ. Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:50:01 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12313762 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12313457 MichaelP, It is recorded in the New Testament in numerous places that Christ instructed his disciples NOT to tell the world about some specific aspects of His teachings or sacred events that took place. One example would be what transpired on the Mount of Transfiguration wherein Jesus and three of his disciples (Peter, James, and John) ascended this high mountain. On the mountain top Jesus and his three disciples met with Moses and Elijah and God the Father who declared: Matthew 17: 5 This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. In Matthew 17:9 Jesus instructs his disciples to tell no one about the vision or what transpired there. What occurred on the Mount of transfiguration was that the Keys of the Kingdom of God (or the power and authority specifically held by Moses and Elijah) were transfered to Christ's disciples Peter, James and John. The sacred events which occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration are a great mystery to biblical scholars and have been hotly debated through the ages. The Lord has chosen to reveal an understanding of these sacred events in this dispensation. This is but one example of the great value of modern revelation and prophets. Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:37:17 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12313457 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12313028 Gundek, I have never understood why some evangelical sects reject the words of Jesus Christ when he states very plainly: John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. There are numerous other examples in the New Testament where Christ states very plainly that the ordinance of baptism is absolutely necessary. Yet, notwithstanding the clear and plain words of Jesus, evangelicals (unlike the rest of Christendom) totally reject the necessity of this ordinance. Given that evangelical theology so easily rejects such a basic tenet of Christianity as well as many other basic tenets (ordinances and covenants, the priesthood, the importance of marriage etc.) can evangelicals be properly called Christians? Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:09:20 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12313028 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12286168 Aaron, This all smacks of bibliolatry - in other words the worship of the Bible over God. Why is it that evangelicals always try to muzzle God? Are evangelicals really Christian? I am inclined to think not. Is not the Bible God's Word written by His prophets who received direct testimony of the Lord? So according to the evangelical approach you would totally discount the Apostle Paul's epiphany which he received on the road to Damascus because it was a private, emotional testimony. Paul's account was certainly not in accord with the interpretation of the scriptures of the religious experts of the time (the Sanhedrin and Sadducees). Likewise you would discount the meeting between the Lord and Moses because this was a personal epiphany. According to this evangelical formula all communication between man and God is to be discounted because it is an emotional epiphany. Well, doesn't that discount the entire Bible? Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:14:16 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12286168 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12285024 Michael, What you wrote is anything but clear: "I do repeat what Paul explicitly says, that if folks cannot avoid sinning through sex, they ought not to get married. How can you read anything different into his clear words? And his clear words suggest that marriage was not a commandment." Are you suggesting that Paul was advising the early church members in Corinth that "if they cannot avoid sinning through sex, they ought not to get married". In other words, are you stating that Paul was advocating sexual promiscuity for those who are not married??? Isn't this exactly the opposite of what Paul was writing to the saints in Corinth - to avoid the rampant sexual promiscuity that was so prevalent in Greek culture. This does not make sense to me. In regard to you other point concerning misrepresenting LDS doctrine; evangelicals do not so much "interpret {our} faith differently" but rather are very uninformed as to what Latter-day Saints actually believe and practice in their faith. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:49:56 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12285024 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12284213 Michael, No, it doesn't make sense to me nor to the vast majority of Christendom. It is curious how evangelical theology negates some six millenia of Biblical teaching. The vast majority of Christian denominations (apostolic faiths such as Roman Catholicism, Greek and Russian Orthodox, Coptic, Marionite, Anglican etc. including most mainline Protestant churches - Lutheran, Anabaptist, Calvinists etc.) affirm the absolute necessity of sacraments or ordinances and covenants such as baptism. Evangelical theology is in the minority on this issue on insisting that ordinances and covenants are not necessary. This begs the question: are evangelicals really Christian if they totally reject Christ's teachings on such vital matters as baptism? Is not the notion of cheap grace a false gospel? Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:30:24 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12284213 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12274086 Aaron, Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say: "perhaps is the difference between bearing God's testimony and bearing one's personal testimony." Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:39:43 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12274086 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12270983 MichaelP, Perhaps you are misinterpreting what Paul has to say on the subject. It is unequivocally clear that marriage was and is viewed as a sacred covenant and commandment of God by the Jewish faith. Paul was a Jewish rabbi. It is a perversion of his words to suggest that Paul is advocating against marriage. This highlights the great problem of evangelical theology in that it consistently misinterprets the intent and meaning of God's Word. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:24:47 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12270983 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12270551 MichaelP, According to your formulation, is not your salvation dependent on X, where X is your faith in Christ? I think the question is how do we exercise our faith in Christ. In LDS doctrine we exercise our Faith in Christ by repenting of our sins, being baptized and following the commandments of God. The first step of course is exercising faith in Christ. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:13:47 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12270551 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12270093 Martin_J, In response to your question: "It seems to me that there are actually two LDS churches. The question is, are there?" There answer in unequivocally no. Emphatically, the LDS DO NOT "start with one gospel and end with another". Really, Martin you truly do not understand LDS doctrine, the LDS Church, its people and culture. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:02:39 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12270093 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12252592 TXNathan, Stephen was calling out directly to his friend Jesus when he said "Lord Jesus, receive my sprit!". Stephen was not in the act of prayer. It is interesting to note that Stephen beheld God the Father as well as Jesus Christ as two separate individuals with physical bodies. I have never understood how evangelicals could say that this great vision of Stephen comports with a Trinitarian conception of God. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:55:55 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12252592 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12252534 Mobaby, Again, you clearly do not understand LDS doctrine. It is not "a form of Gnosticism" as you put it. It is not based on having some type of "secret knowledge". The Book of Mormon is exactly what it claims to be, namely: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Its veracity is open to any who seek it. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:41:56 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12252534 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12252479 Lautensack, Not to belabor the point, but that is your subjective opinion and it is also your subjective interpretation of the scriptures. Truly, evangelical theology is quite different from that of Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Coptic traditions. Scholars would also say that there are considerable differences in evangelical theology with that taken by mainline Protestant denominations such as the Church of England (Episcopal Church in the U.S.), Lutheranism etc. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:36:01 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12252479 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12251508 Gundek, I apologize for my comments. However, being a Latter-day Saint I am quite accustomed to evangelicals slinging all sorts of mud at my religion, the leaders of my church, and at me. Nevertheless, I was frankly appalled by what I saw on Dr. Ben Witherington's web site (regarding the Top Ten Redneck Awards) which, in my eyes severely diminishes his credibility. Indeed, I would think that most people would be appalled too. Regarding the Apostle Paul's marital status, as I have stated elsewhere on this thread, there is considerable debate amongst theologians and biblical scholars concerning whether or not Paul was married. Many scholars are of the opinion that Paul was married. My Jewish friends strongly assert that Paul was married and find it difficult to consider that he wasn't. However, until we find a marriage certificate with his name and that of his spouse I imagine that this controversy will continue to be debated. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 02:26:00 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12251508 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12251330 TXNathan, Jesus Christ taught his disciples how to pray. His prayer is known as the Lord's Prayer (with which I assume you are familiar - you know: Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed by the name etc.). Christ directed his disciples to address their prayers to whom? to Our Father who art in Heaven. It is important to note that Jesus did not tell his disciples or apostle to pray to him but rather to his Father. In matters of prayer it is important to follow Christ's example. The problems arises if one supposes that the Father and the Son are somehow the same entity (as promulgated in the Nicene Creed). Then confusion comes about as to whom one is to address in their prayers. What we need to do is to follow Christ's example - it is really as simple as that. You stated that the prophet Thomas S. Monson does not have a close relationship with Jesus Christ. This is false. Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet of God and as such receives revelation directly from Jesus Christ. Thomas S. Monson knows the Lord face to face. Likewise, my relationship with Jesus Christ is personal and intimate. I know Jesus personally. I know his glory. I know his character. I know his sense of humor. I know his voice and I know his face. This knowledge does not come from man but from direct personal experience. Consider the example of Paul the Apostle and you will begin to understand what I am saying. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 02:05:12 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12251330 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12250502 MichaelP, Regarding the other matters which you raised (i.e. not understanding LDS doctrine there really is not enough space here for me to review all of the "mistatements" (I prefer the term misrepresentation) of LDS doctrine that I have seen posted here by evangelicals at Mormon Coffee. The evangelicals' misrepresentation and mischaracterization of the LDS doctrine regarding faith and works is a typical example. I would encourage anyone who wants to know "what Mormons believe" to visit their local LDS chapel and find out for themselves - a simple enough suggestion. Regarding your question of whether I have ever considered understanding doctrinal matters from the Protestant viewpoint my response is yes. I am intimately familiar with the Protestant viewpoint. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 01:34:16 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12250502 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12250328 MichaelP I have heard of this interpretation of the Apostle Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 7 wherein "that if you can refrain from sex, you ought to not get married so you can focus on God" and seen it used as a defense of the practice of celibacy for Roman Catholic priests and nuns (which did not become incorporated in the Catholic church until about the 9th century). However, this is clearly a gross misinterpretation of Paul's intent which was to warn the members of the church in Corinth to abstain from the sexual promiscuity that was rampant in Greek culture. The very notion that Paul (as former Jewish rabbi) would be denouncing marriage or otherwise stating "that if you can refrain from sex, you ought to not get married so you can focus on God" is preposterous. Marriage is a sacred covenant in the Jewish religion and the first great commandment which God gave to Adam and eve in the Garden of Eden: Genesis 2: 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. The scriptures must be interpreted in their full social and cultural context otherwise you wind up with really perverted notions such as thinking that Paul was advocating against marriage. It is essential to realize that Jesus and his Apostles were Jews and always viewed themselves as being good Jews - the covenanted people of the Lord. Christ's apostles saw in Jesus the divine fulfillment of Jewish prophecy regarding the coming of the Messiah. Being a disciple of Christ did not diminish their Judaic heritage but to them was a fulfillment of all that being a Jew meant. It was only many decades after the Ascension that the followers of Christ started to see themselves as being distinctly different and apart from their Jewish brethren. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 01:15:33 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12250328