Jack, you are missing the point.

For centuries women have given themselves abortions even at the risk of their own lives. They are, for lack of a better word, insane. This is not a new phenomenon.

By taking away the ability to get a doctor-performed abortion, you are condemning both the woman and her fetus to death. Women who want an abortion often kill themselves trying to abort the fetus themselves.

We have a long standing tradition in this country of sparing insane people the death penalty. It is defined as cruel and unusual punishment because they cannot be held accountable for their actions. I believe a woman who would kill herself to avoid carrying a fetus to term fits those standards.

Well Jack, I don't even know how to reply to this. That is some crazy stuff. I do appreciate your passion though. I believe you are fighting what you believe to be the good fight and I can't fault you for that! I guess I'll just have to say good day and blessings to you and yours. Thank you for your time.

Here is some black and white for you - Women have been giving themselves abortions for 3500 years. Herbs, implements, physical pressure. The problem isn't a new one. And outlawing it won't make it go away. I wish it would.

I appreciate life as much as I fully can. I believe it is to be savored. I think the women who choose to get abortions maybe don't appreciate life, and perhaps that is part of the problem. Women who choose abortions often live in broken homes or are in abusive relationships and feel trapped by a pregnancy. They then make a stressed decision without regard to the consequences, either good or bad. So in the end, it doesn't matter what we think, or what is legal or what is illegal. Women have had abortions since the Egyptians. This is not a new problem. Given that fact, how do we minimize it? How do we save the most lives?

Oh, Idaho Gal... why do you keep me up so late?

I did a quick a search of U.S. State Laws using Findlaw.com - And at least Idaho and California have NO LAWS regarding the use of ultrasound, or whether they can show the mother the pictures during an abortion procedure. In fact, it seems there are only very basic laws that govern the details of the procedure. So abortion providers may or may be following these practices, but you need to get your facts straight. Show me any state law that forbids ultrasound before an abortion. If you find one, I think it will be the exception rather than the rule, but let's try and stick to the facts.

The rest of your argument is complete speculation. Women are told a lot of things regarding babies, but if they don't know what they are carrying inside their womb, they have bigger problems than being pregnant.

Again, I point out that women who see ultrasounds and know they are carrying a human fetus still choose to get abortions. You don't like it. I don't like it. But it happens everyday. If abortion is outlawed, some of the very same women will choose to do the procedure themselves, which is why I believe choice is to be protected.

I'm not trying to be obtuse. I feel you are choosing to see only 1 side of a 2-sided problem.

Ok. Quick science lesson. You bury petroleum-based plastic in the ground. It rains. Most water flows directly to the nearest creek, river, pond, whatever. But some water gets absorbed into the ground, where the soft earth filters it on its way to the water table - huge chambers of water - the lowest places it can go without getting turned to steam by the earth's core heat.

Sometimes the water table is so far down the only way it ever sees the light of day again is to drill for it and pump it out. Usually anywhere with a relatively high elevation. But if you live in a soft, green, low land like the Willamette Valley, the water table isn't very deep and that water eventually leaches back into rivers, creeks, ponds, etc.

So if you first filter all of that water through decomposing petroleum and soft earth, the resulting water is tainted. Essentially poisoned by the petrochems. And you're correct - it won't really matter to us living now, but over the next hundred years that water is constantly leaching back into water supply. Not safe to drink. Taints vegetation. Fish don't like it.

Even a few hundred years isn't that far away. So maybe your children wouldn't be affected too bad, but your grandchildren and great grandchildren might see the effects. The further along you go, the worse the effects would be. A plastic jug has an estimated decomposition time of 1 million years. It is really strong stuff! That's why we love it so.

Anyway, in a place like the Willamette Valley it all eventually goes back into what we eat and drink. I guess the bottom line is that you shouldn't poop where you eat.

Keep your eyes on China in the coming years and you should start to see. I'm already reading about deformed babies in the industrial cities. Those people throw EVERYTHING in the river! Crazy. Worse case scenario. I bet their burgers are cheap though.

Anyone know what they use to line landfills with? I know it's not hard plastic. I wonder what the decomposition time is on those liners...

I guess I don't mind the paper cups in the landfill. I maybe buy 20 drinks a year at a fast food place... what is that, $4.00 a year for the fancy cups then? I can afford that. If I were smarter I wouldn't eat out at all...

Agreed. As I said in one of my earlier replies, some human behaviors are easier to draw lines around than others. I am glad we have laws when it comes to driving in traffic, free speech, gun ownership, etc. It's just that those things are relatively small when compared to carrying a child in your womb.

I urge anyone reading this, on either side of the debate, to not look at it in such black-and-white terms. Something as emotionally and physically complex as reproduction has many shades of gray in it.

I couldn't agree more. The battle is for hearts and minds. Legislation will not work to solve the problem. I have seen the pictures and they are tough to look at. It makes me wonder how a woman could still want an abortion after seeing such images. Many change their minds, but many don't. That tells me that for some women, the fear of carrying a child to term transcends all logic, which is why banning all abortions is cruel and inhumane. Many women would rather risk death than carrying a child to term. It's plain sad, but it is the truth.

I agree with you Jack. No one has the right to murder or commit wreckless killing. But I don't believe that early term abortion and murder are the same thing. Murder occurs between two completely separate, conscious individuals, while a fetus is totally dependent on it's mother for survival, and is thus subject to all of her decisions.

You may be surprised to know that I think it is a good idea to limit late-term abortions (except for rape, incest). At some point the fetus becomes a viable individual, and termination is no longer abortion but murder. Go ahead and accuse me of splitting a fine hair, but as I said previously, this is a very complicated subject and I think splitting fine hairs is exactly what is called for.

Honestly, I think limiting late-term abortions has been one of the successes of the Great abortion debate. It's one area where both sides have largely found a consensus.

My apologies. You misunderstand me. I agree each child is wonderful and unique and has unlimited potential.

My point was that as a species, there are a lot of human beings. 6.5 billion on the planet last time I checked. Anything that exists in those kinds of numbers tends to be less valuable. I think if there were fewer of us, we might treat each other with more respect and kindness.

And you'll be glad to know I am not a medical physician. I just spend a lot time thinking about the world's problems.