en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/2430400 Comments by BeahLeben http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/04/21/were-you-surprised-by-any-of-basums-responses-or-his-appearance-and-why-119-blog/#IDComment145286957 I was surprised at Bassum’s response to the question of whether the Iraqi government uses Christianity to demonize America the way that America uses Islam to demonize Iraqis. This was shocking to me in many different ways. First off I thought that the religious connection of the government and subsequent fear of radical behavior was a pretty significant part of Sam’s lecture being apparent even within the title; “Christian Invaders." I felt like that was one of the more impactful parts of this lecture and to realize that this is not that case- that the reversal does not occur in Iraq was a bit surprising to me. Particularly it was disturbing to me to realize that using religious extremism is the way that American media has manipulated the people to hate Iraqis. I am really skeptical of the media and I hardly ever read or watch the news- (to a fault, in fact, where people wonder if I’ve been living in a hole). And yet this idea has infected the majority of the American population, both the religious and the nonreligious alike. It is no longer just an idea of the media but it has been adopted by the people so fully that it is scary. I am surprised that Iraqi media has not taken Christian extremism to persuade the people to hate Americans. I am relieved as both a Christian and an American that would feel incredibly misunderstood and offended if anyone lumped me in with the Quaran burning, Jesus hates fags, God is behind the US army giving it victory, “God-supports-Bush” and-hates-democrats Christians. I would be appalled if anyone else said that I was “Christian” the way our presidents have been. And likewise I am appalled to see for the first time how this idea concerning Muslims has caught like wildfire within America and to see the effects of it. I see the effects of it in the Quaran burning preacher. And then in the numerous accounts of Muslim Americans with stories to tell of how they have been discriminated against, or threatened, or attacked after 9-11. I see it in the way people act when they see a woman wearing the hijab. I hear it in the way people talk about anyone looking Middle Eastern. It is everywhere. Here in America. But not there? I am surprised that we have this view of them as being intolerant and threatening and extreme when we are the ones actually being intolerant and threatening and extreme towards them. Ironic. Sat, 23 Apr 2011 03:53:54 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/04/21/were-you-surprised-by-any-of-basums-responses-or-his-appearance-and-why-119-blog/#IDComment145286957 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/04/12/what-are-your-thoughts-on-everything-we-saw-and-heard-in-lecture-about-native-americans-119-blog/#IDComment143227787 I think this class was definitely one of the most thought provoking for me. Sure it wasn’t as well done as other lectures but I felt like I walked out of class with a heaviness that is different than with any other class. I think this class was definitely one of the most thought provoking for me. Sure it wasn’t as well done as other lectures but I felt like I walked out of class with a heaviness that is different than with any other class. I agree with another post that mentioned our education system has failed miserably to accurately educate Americans about the situation involving our acquisition of this land. I am surprised to begin to realize (because I know that I in no way fully comprehend) the extent of this situation and the extent to which it has been pushed under the rug. Perhaps that is why it is so weighty to me- because this seems like something that has been hidden from the public. I have never known a person that has lived on a reservation. I don’t even know how that works (I assume that the government sets aside land-a reservation- for these people that are so poor they can’t leave.) The closest physical contact that I, a Pennsylvanian for all of my life, have had was during a vacation out west once. My family and I were on our way to visit the Grand Canyon and saw a huge sign for an outlook. Excited we turned off. We pulled up and there was only one way to get to this outlook and that was to go through an Indian market of sorts. There were many beautiful things for sale, jewelry, paintings, and other touristy crafts however we didn’t buy anything. Once at the outlook we felt like we had been tricked- the outlook wasn’t really much to look at. Laughing we continued on our trip to the Grand Canyon. I was really too young to realize what really was going on here. That this was the only way that these people survived and that I had been like every other American- completely blind to it all. I also remember on the same trip driving near an Indian reservation. I remember seeing for the first time really poor houses. I remember feeling that there was something strange about the Indians and their situation but I couldn’t figure it out. To some degree this is still how I feel. I know a little more now. I have heard that Indians are poor. I have heard that Indians live on the poorest land in the Country. I watched a documentary where a tribe was pleading with the local government to make a large part of their land a landfill because the land was so desolate that there was nothing else they could do with it and this was an opportunity for them to make money even if the pollution killed them. I learned from the video in class about alcoholism and suicide and violence that these people are stricken with. Those are not light topics. That these people are still blatantly oppressed and that we don’t hear about it, we barely know it exists, that here where we take pride in being “free” that this is happening is disturbing to me. My boyfriend made the comment once that we consider the holocaust to be this horrendously awful thing – that we talk about it and write books about it and movies about it but that the Native American Genocide was more extensive and lasted longer and most people don’t even know about it. He commented too that there has been other horrendous genocides since then again that we haven’t talked about throughout the world. And he posed the question- could it be because the Jews were white and these terrible things happened to them that the holocaust is regarded as the worst of the worst? Fri, 15 Apr 2011 21:47:56 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/04/12/what-are-your-thoughts-on-everything-we-saw-and-heard-in-lecture-about-native-americans-119-blog/#IDComment143227787 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/04/05/which-video-in-class-today-had-the-biggest-impact-on-you-and-why-119-blog/#IDComment141098973 When I first watched this lecture online it was not the jihad video, or the videos of the soldiers, or the Jesus Camp video that disturbed me the most but the last video we watched that portrayed Christian missionaries as trying to take over the world- mirroring the ideas of the Jihad video only with Christianity. Sure I felt fear with the Jihad video, fear that there are terrorists out there and that there are people creating terrorists with videos like this one. I was angry because this video embodies the fear of Muslims that I hear about from the people around me- the subtle ways that people express it that I try to ignore but that probably that I also embody just as much. I have met Muslims. I have yet to find one that is scary. I visited a Muslim country this summer and managed to leave loving the people that I met there. I hate politics- and my biggest fear right now is with Muslims in government which is probably more about the government than the Muslims. After this lecture I would assume that a Muslim might feel the same way about “Christian” government. The video of the soldiers resonates every time with something else deep inside me. I think about how hard I try to succeed at school and how hard I work to live- to make it by (I don’t have any debt and I pay my bills-not my parents) I have felt crushed before, defeated and I know that I still have my livelihood. I am still in school. I still have what I need to make it by. But I can empathize; I can imagine the crushing, blinding, shredding hopelessness that that guy must have felt watching all he had become smashed into the dirt beyond thought of repair. I have seen the entire Jesus Camp video and as a Christian it disturbs me. What disturbs me the most is the marriage that exists in this group between Christianity and politics. Like I said before I hate politics. I cannot imagine the Christianity that I identify with- the things about Christ that I want to follow- ever even closely resembling the system that we have in the United States. I fear “Christian” government similarly to Muslim government because I am a Christian and I fear that either one will try and steal my soul and manipulate my life. I don’t want to be associated with either and so I avoid both. It is because I am a Christian that the last video disturbs me the most. It disturbs me that I know Voice of the Martyrs and while it does glorify death for one’s faith it in no way glorifies killing for one’s faith. The stories of these martyrs are similar to Ghandi- they chose to try and make a difference and chose to do it peacefully even if in the end it resulted in their death. To associate this with the government and with convert or die philosophy to me is like trying to say Ghandi led the crusades. It is disturbing to me to see myself being demonized and feared unjustly- because, just like with my feelings with the jihad video, I fear the terrorists the video will make. This video also resonates with me the most also because of complicated aspects of Christianity that it makes me address (that I am trying to work through). Fri, 8 Apr 2011 22:01:41 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/04/05/which-video-in-class-today-had-the-biggest-impact-on-you-and-why-119-blog/#IDComment141098973 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/04/05/which-video-in-class-today-had-the-biggest-impact-on-you-and-why-119-blog/#IDComment141098673 I have watched this lecture before online. I was extremely uncomfortable coming into this lecture because I knew that I would have to deal once again with intense confusion, anger, and discomfort. I walked out and sadly I would say that it wasn’t as bad as I had expected that it would be. I felt all of those emotions intensely. I walked out of there still wrestling with those emotions however, I was disappointed with the non-existing response I felt from other people and perhaps also from myself. Fri, 8 Apr 2011 22:00:12 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/04/05/which-video-in-class-today-had-the-biggest-impact-on-you-and-why-119-blog/#IDComment141098673 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/03/31/what-was-more-enlightening-the-information-on-your-own-sex-or-the-opposite-sex-and-why-119-blog/#IDComment139195490 I grew up in a Christian school where the main ministry of the founders was to talk about abstinence and sex. All throughout high school I went on retreats (yes plural) where sexual purity was the main topic. I had to take sex education classes just like everyone else. I knew statistics about sex. I knew all about sexually transmitted diseases. I knew that most people found it fun. I knew that your first time (as a woman) you bled. I could tell you exactly how it made babies. I had to take a physiology class in college to learn all about it again. I learned how to get birth control and its many magical affects (that is besides preventing pregnancy it causes your period to come preciously when you plan it and it cures acne) and I learned about condoms. I learned from literature classes that women are not supposed to enjoy sex, and when they do they are looked down upon. (This is particularly interesting in light of the fact that 2/3 of women don’t experience orgasm when having intercourse.) I understand how from these sources of information how I could never really understand my female body and how it works specifically how it works sexually. Its taboo to talk about in the church, however I learned there that it is something much more complicated than just a physical act. The Christian perspective of sex is what really interests me though. Every single retreat I went to was segregated by gender. There were many times that I heard people share about sexual abuse or rape or even just that they made a bad choice. I was told that sex was fun- and that the determining factor for whether it was hurtful or fun was whether the two people involved were married or not. This makes sense. I was not part of a married audience so why would we discuss exactly how women feel about sex. No one was there to bring up the question “what if I’m married and it isn’t fun?” and no one even was in a place to come up with the question. What I look back with the most curiosity is how modesty was taught to us. It was taught to us from a male perspective. It was one way that I was aware that I was living in a male dominated world. We were to dress modestly to prevent men from looking at us lustfully. This makes sense to me still. I don’t wear provocative clothing because I don’t want to be treated provocatively. But I can’t help but wonder why it wasn’t taught to us by appealing to womanly motives? I wonder what that would look like. Would modesty matter in a female dominated world? Fri, 1 Apr 2011 20:53:32 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/03/31/what-was-more-enlightening-the-information-on-your-own-sex-or-the-opposite-sex-and-why-119-blog/#IDComment139195490 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/03/22/what-factors-in-your-race-make-it-difficult-to-date-outside-your-race-119-blog/#IDComment137549327 I think that there are many social factors that affect people and make it difficult for them to date outside of their race. I remember in high school my English teacher told us once (randomly) that there was a study done that said that people usually are attracted to and get married to people of similar attractiveness. I am not sure how you would conduct a study of that sort (attractiveness seems like a hard thing to measure), but I still see it and rarely do I see a couple and think “wow she got lucky there!” I think that along the same lines of attractiveness, people are attracted to people that they feel are similar to them and that often means that they are attracted to people of the same race. Besides the relatively shaky attractiveness presumption there are other factors that make it hard for people to step across the racial lines in romantic relationships. Family and friends especially influence your dating relationships. If your friends make it very clear that people from another race are just not attractive then it is probable that you too will find them unattractive. Family is more problematic because dating is not just a matter of attractiveness. Tolerability can be a difficult thing for many families. I have a hard time tolerating some of my aunts and uncles, not because they are another race, but because they are loud and drunk and obnoxious all the time. Luckily for me they live far enough away and I see them few enough times that it isn’t a problem I have to deal with every day. However, if my immediate family was that way I would probably explode multiple times and have to struggle with alcohol in ways I don’t have to now. For some families race is that thing that they don’t want to deal with so intimately. It is easy to assume that you are not racist if you don’t have to intimately deal with it every day. I am in an interracial relationship now. I have to deal with race all the time. I never would have had to wonder if my boyfriend’s family would like me because I am white before. (I agree with Sam that angry black women can be intimidating). I have to re-evaluate my actions sometimes. For example; are we spending less time with his family because he doesn’t have a good relationship with them or because I feel less comfortable there? And if it’s because I feel less comfortable there, is it because of our difference in appearance? Or his mom’s thick accent that I don’t understand well? Or differences in opinions? I see that race is still a problem when we go to restaurants together and I am the only one addressed. I have to deal with people coming up to me and telling me that they think that interracial couples are so great- or that I am doing a great thing by dating him (because he is black). Why is it that by dating a black guy, dating a guy I think is awesome, somehow becomes noble? We were having a picnic and randomly a couple people approached us and asked if we wanted to join their State College interracial/ multiracial support group. And I became aware that there is a support group for these things. It is such a big deal to society that there are groups to help you deal with it and celebrate it. Fri, 25 Mar 2011 19:04:30 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/03/22/what-factors-in-your-race-make-it-difficult-to-date-outside-your-race-119-blog/#IDComment137549327 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/03/15/lgbt-families-theres-a-lot-of-fear-out-there/#IDComment135974044 I have mixed feelings about homosexual couples raising children however; I agree with Zach Wahls that this should not be “codified” in any state constitution. I grew up in a very Christian home and it is not uncommon for me to hear people say that they are horrified that our government is considering legalizing homosexual marriages. That when gay marriage is legalized that families everywhere will collapse. I do not know many homosexuals and so in blind ignorance I have agreed with them for a long time. I have since met a few homosexuals however it was not through them that I have come to change my mind about this. It was actually through a church sermon, through my boyfriend, and through a very good friend of mine that is straight. One of my best friends was adopted in her early teens. This is an unusual occurrence because lots of people only want to adopt babies and while she was at that age she still had at least a parent that claimed her as their own (even if it was only for the welfare money). She lived in foster care with a couple different families, and at least 2 out of the 3 that I can remember were traumatic in some way. One family tried to split her and her sister up telling my friend that she was ruining her sister’s chances of being adopted and that her sister was better than her. One family promised to adopt her and then changed their mind. The family in transition between these two was a lesbian couple and to this day my friend still keeps in contact with them and speaks highly of them. She has told me that these women couldn’t adopt her if they tried because of legal stuff regarding their sexual orientation (and unfortunately other factors) but that they had taught her better than anyone else how to feel ok in her own skin. This does not seem to me to be terrible child rearing. I am sure that she would agree with Zach Wahl’s testimony that these “parent’s” sexual orientation in no way negatively affected her character. Finally the sermon that I went to was the first time I had heard a Christian community talk about having close relationships with homosexuals because they are people and shouldn’t be treated any differently. It was refreshing and anyone that is a Christian I think should not be afraid of gay rights and legalization of homosexual marriage because of this; they are people and deserve the same freedom that we have. The freedom to raise kids and pursue whatever job they want, and get the benefits and privileges that other people that live together and that are associated together get. And that anything less says a lot about what you think about the value of people. Even saying this I know that I still feel uncomfortable with the actuality of a homosexual couple raising children but I think that this is due to how I grew up and the homophobic culture that I live in. I don't think that the government has any right to regulate this though. Sat, 19 Mar 2011 03:59:52 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/03/15/lgbt-families-theres-a-lot-of-fear-out-there/#IDComment135974044 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/02/08/how-have-the-choices-youve-made-and-determinism-affected-your-life-119-blog/#IDComment127452825 Even after Thursday I still would say that I lean toward determinism. I know that you can always change things with the choices you make. I agree that it is a mix. However I was sitting in class on Tuesday and felt like I could see my life unfolded this way. My parents went to Penn State. My SAT scores fit into the numbers my parents make. My Dad has a really hard work ethic that I have adopted from him. I remember hearing in high school that you end up being really similar to your parents. In high school that is the last thing you want to hear but I think it is true. I know that there are a lot of things that I say and do that I know came from my parents. My parents never could afford to just give me things. I pay for everything I need- food, clothes, car, and housing. They did make an extreme effort to make sure I had the best education I could get. They worked hard and sacrificed a lot to get me into a private school 45 min away from my house. They encouraged me to play basketball and soccer. (My mom played these sports growing up as well.) It is because of my parents that I am in college. Both my parents worked really hard to get me here without any debt. College is already paying off for me however I still work at Starbucks to make sure that I can afford the things that I have. I also have made the dean’s list nearly every semester of college and all of this I know is because of my parents. Like I said if it wasn’t for them I wouldn’t be in college. At least not at Penn State. When I graduated high school I didn’t want to go to college. I realized however that my other option would be to work full time probably in a minimum wage job. I didn’t really want to go to Penn State however like I said my parents have worked hard to provide an education for me. My dad works at Penn State and so I get a discount. If I went anywhere else I would have to have loans. Since taking this class I have become increasingly more aware of how money influences our education and our future options. This is a practical example of that. Another practical example of this is that part of why I “chose” to come to college is because otherwise I would have to pay for my own health care (right now I am under my parents). Really I think about college and wonder what I actually chose. Sat, 12 Feb 2011 01:54:31 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/02/08/how-have-the-choices-youve-made-and-determinism-affected-your-life-119-blog/#IDComment127452825 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/02/01/interpreting-names-for-people-of-one-race-who-act-like-another/#IDComment126076621 I think that this is a very interesting question. I have heard black people that act white "oreos" and white people trying to act black and to a much smaller degree I have also heard of Asians that act white. (I used to have a Korean friend that would go tanning and said when she went home to Korea that this was not accepted well by her mother.) However, the thought has never crossed my mind before that we don't ever say that a white person is Asian. What would that mean? That they speak Chinese? Is there really Chinese- English slang like there is “Black-English” slang? Would it mean that they eat Chinese food all the time? I don’t really think that applies to white people acting black so probably not. Would it mean that they are into Anime art? Would it mean that they play the violin or cello since as long as they can remember? I think the reason it is hard to even imagine what this would look like is because it is hard for Americans to pick out Chinese culture. For example I worked at a coffee shop and it was brought to my attention that my coworkers at this coffee shop. Everyone was white however at least three people there were in an interracial relationship. One guy was married to a Latina girl. One girl was engaged (and later married) to an Asian guy (I think specifically he was Japanese). And I was dating a Black guy. The guy that I worked with would talk to me sometimes about diversity in relationships and he would continually forget that this other girl was also in an interracial relationship. It was strange to me that at times it would seem like he didn’t even consider this girls fiancé as being anything other than white, although he was pretty clearly Japanese (and the girl that I worked with had learned Japanese and read graphic novels and was into Anime). Americans import a lot of things from China. Maybe this is why there really isn’t an Asian style of clothing that is distinguishable from Americans. Most Asians the general population thinks of light skinned and (although we say that this doesn’t matter to people anymore that is not what we see) so I think this makes it harder for some people to pick them out than a black person. Sat, 5 Feb 2011 04:53:45 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/02/01/interpreting-names-for-people-of-one-race-who-act-like-another/#IDComment126076621 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/01/26/what-changes-would-you-make-119-blog-2/#IDComment124474070 It is strange for anyone to think of Jesus as having any skin color but white. It is true that this idea has penetrated into any culture where Christianity is known and is a deep seated idea. However I think if the media wanted to within a couple generations Jesus could be accepted as having another skin color. I think that people underestimate the power of media. I am a white female and I grew up in the church and while I had a general idea that Jesus didn’t look like the white guy with long hair there was always a kind of stigma within the Christian community around me about saying anything definitive about what Jesus actually might have looked like. I knew he was a Jew. All the Jews I knew were white with dark hair. So my most natural guess was that Jesus was actually white with black hair and maybe a funny looking beard (-one that kinda looked like an Amish beard). Anyway whatever I had supposed when I took the time to actually think and wonder about it was a different thing altogether from what my mind naturally pictured when anyone would mention Jesus. My unconscious mind will continue (without extreme and prolonged conscious change) picture Jesus as white dude with long hair. This I will attribute entirely to media. I think that media images over time if unchallenged shape a lot of our unconscious attitudes. Therefore I think that at first picturing Jesus as having a different skin color will be violently opposed but if a legitimate case for why this is done so (i.e. that Jews in that region really looked similarly) and with prolonged abundant and unanimous media doing this I don’t think that it would take that long before people would accept it. Media is so widespread now that I don’t think that it would take that long for the idea to be a global change. It would require a lot of money and a lot of agreement among big media influences. It would require many different productions and art and posters and children's picture books and nativity sets portraying Jesus with the same skin color and hair. It would require a little bit of time. There would be a lot of hidden racism brought out of the religious closet. …But I think that the change could happen in a lifetime. You could see your grandchildren (and maybe the great grandchildren of the person on the opposite side of the world) accept Jesus as something different than the white skinned, long haired, bearded man we think of now. If the media and marketing world wished. Sat, 29 Jan 2011 04:26:57 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/01/26/what-changes-would-you-make-119-blog-2/#IDComment124474070 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/01/14/why-dont-we-know/#IDComment122908159 I think that this is a great question about an important issue. From food to clothes to cell phones it seems to me that we have become more and more foreign to where our things come from. If you look into this though it really isn’t that hard to understand. In America it is rare that a company actually makes their product in the US. That usually means that there is at least an ocean separating us from the physical process that goes on in the production of any good that we buy. What goes on in most other countries is generally unfamiliar to most people. Most people don’t care about things that they don’t encounter everyday face to face. In this sense it is a tragedy that we care more about a cheap product than the lives of the people that made it. However it is understandable that because we are actually connected face to face the product and its price and not the worker and their condition we don’t think about the issue behind the products we purchase. All that being said this issue is more complicated than that. I tried to do a paper once about sweatshops and how to avoid them and it was a nightmare trying to find information about it. Sure we know that sweatshops exist but it is really hard to find out where they exist and what companies are buying from them. It is not fair to say that all of a company’s products come from something made in a sweatshop but it is impossible to tell what was and what wasn’t. For example it is unfair to say that GAP buys things made in sweatshops and to boycott GAP because not everything that GAP sells was made in a sweatshop. But how could you tell the difference? It is nearly impossible. It is also not fair to boycott GAP because GAP is not the only company that is doing this. Probably any other alternative clothing store is also doing this. And the problem is only more complicated because GAP may not even know that they are doing this. (I definitely think that some places like GAP do know that they are buying products from sweatshops but this is not always the case.) Theoretically we could solve this problem by pressuring a company to look into it more and ensure that their product didn’t come from a sweatshop however this also is not as easy as it seems. To make a product like clothing for example there are many steps that we almost never consider. It isn’t just the people that are sewing the shirt but it is the people that are dying the material, the people that are weaving it, it is the people that are growing cotton for it or the people that are producing the material… Each time it gets harder to determine where exactly something came from and then in what conditions was it made. Plus do you really think that people that are running the sweatshops are going to make it obvious that they are doing so? Overall it gets really complicated really fast and I hope that we will actually come up with a solution for it if one is possible. Sat, 22 Jan 2011 03:22:42 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/01/14/why-dont-we-know/#IDComment122908159 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/01/10/last-name-%e2%80%9cb%e2%80%9d-%e2%80%93-intense-debate/#IDComment121939124 soc 119 Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:03:14 +0000 http://www.worldinconversation.org/2011/01/10/last-name-%e2%80%9cb%e2%80%9d-%e2%80%93-intense-debate/#IDComment121939124