And when anyone says that our political system doesn't give them any choice, give them the lie! They could have chosen Ron Paul. They didn't. Let them know, when they complain, that what they are complaining about wouldn't be happening if they had elected Ron Paul as our president. And if they tell you that they never heard of Ron Paul, or that they had no idea what he stood for in the election, tell them to stop voting, because they are obviously not competent to make informed decisions if they are the type of people who ignore important information that is right in front of them, even on the boob tube they all stare at so blankly all day.

And if they tell you that they couldn't vote for Ron Paul because he was opposed to socialism, ask them if they are content to accept torture and endless brutal aggressive war just so long as they are given their precious social programs (i.e. would they willingly sacrifice the social programs to put an end to torture and war). I think you will find that none of these people will say "no." They won't say "yes", but tellingly, they never will say "no." I know. I've asked this question many times. They will evade the question with a torrent of doubletalk and attempts to change the subject. Makes you think about the psychology of socialists, doesn't it?

I am deeply disappointed by Jeff Huber's response to my comment. He did not address in any way the main point of my comment, that his statement that "Athens produced most of the art and philosophy that defined Western civilization only after it lost its wars with Persia and Sparta" was clearly untrue, and that his hope that the USA would see some fine new hour after its defeat was ill founded. Instead, he chose to quibble over whether or not Persia had ever defeated Athens, never acknowledging his error regarding the Golden Age of Athens. So now I will address what little he did say in response to my comment, and the errors therein.

Mr. Huber's statement that "to say Athens won the Greco-Persian War is like saying France won World War II" is absurd. It is a silly analogy. France surrendered in World War II and accepted occupation. The Athenians did nothing of the sort. When it became clear that they were about to be overwhelmed, the Athenians fled (with their fleet) to the island of Salamis, allowing their empty city to be destroyed. Shortly thereafter, their fleet destroyed most of the Persian navy at the Battle of Salamis, eliminating the Persians' sea supply route and forcing the evacuation of the bulk of the Persian army from the Greek mainland. The next year, at the battle of Plataea, the remaining Persian land forces were destroyed, and the last remnant of the Persian navy was annihilated at the battle of Mycale. The Athenians came right back and rebuilt their city. This was nothing like France in World War II.

Mr. Huber's assertion that the Peace of Callias was a "rough draw" is perplexing. What does he mean by "rough?" The Persians started the war with complete possession of the Ionian states of Asia and the free run of the Aegean sea. They gave all that up in return for a promise that Athens would not seek to conquer any more Persian territory. That is not a "draw", rough or anywise. The Persians were beaten, and they admitted it.

Lastly, Mr. Huber's apparent implication that because Persia provided some support for Sparta's successful war against Athens that somehow means that Persia defeated Athens needs no refutation. It kind of speaks for itself.

Now I would like to return to my original point: Mr. Huber was utterly incorrect when he said that "Athens produced most of the art and philosophy that defined Western civilization only after it lost its wars with Persia and Sparta." He did not address that point in his response to my comment. Perhaps he would now like to give a list of postwar names greater than those I listed from the time between the defeat of Persia and the victory of Sparta.

What a superb article! I was so delighted with it until the end. Sadly, the "bright side" of our situation looks very dark when we look at the facts. Athens did not produce "most of the art and philosophy that defined Western civilization only after it lost its wars with Persia and Sparta." Athens won (with help) both of its wars against Persia, and the Golden Age of Athens, also known as the Age of Pericles, is nearly universally recognized as the period between the final Persian capitulation in 448 BCE and the Spartan victory over Athens in 404 BCE. That era saw the building of the Acropolis as we know it now, the plays of Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Aristophanes, the histories of Herodotus and Thucydides, the sculpture of Phidias, the works of philosophers too numerous to list here, and much more. Even Plato claimed only to repeat the words of his Periclean Age teacher, Socrates, in his great works.

The hubris of the Athenians in their empire building campaign after the defeat of Persia sparked the Peloponnesian war, which ended with the devastation not only of Athens, but of most of the other major Greek states, ensuring their domination by foreign powers (Macedon, Rome, Byzantium, Turkey) for over two thousand years. This is the dark side to our insane foreign policy that the Athenian analogy would predict.

Lord, I hate to pick nits, especially with an author whose insight and skill so surpass mine, but this case is too important to ignore. Mr. Huber's analogy is appropriate, but the true conclusions to be drawn from it are scary. I can only hope that the rest of the world treats my country as gently as Athens was treated after its fall.